36 ~ Growing Older and Bolder with Karen Fitzgerald

Join us as we sit down with the radiant Karen Fitzgerald, a 71-year-old powerhouse who embodies the essence of self-love and vitality, while not 'buying old.'

We discuss how embracing our natural evolution from silver strands to laughter lines will not only help us embrace ourselves but also sets an empowering example for future generations.

With an infectious youthful spirit, Karen leads us through the intimate dance of self-acceptance, encouraging us to honor our bodies' softness and history as a testament to the lives we've led. We share the symbolic journey of transitioning to gray hair and celebrate the personal victories of women who choose to flaunt their age with pride. This episode isn't about denying the changes that come with aging; it's about weaving them into the essence of who we are.

In an era where cosmetic procedures are as common as haircuts, we navigate the delicate balance of personal choice and societal influence. From the wisdom of age-defying role models to rediscovering passions that reignite our inner flame, we delve into the myriad of ways to live a life rich with purpose and joy.

Karen, alongside your hosts, leaves you with an invigorating question about what truly enhances your enjoyment of life. Tune in, as we extend an invitation to redefine aging on your terms and to find the beauty in everything you are and all you've lived.

Connect with Karen:
Website:
https://www.karenfitzgerald.tv/
Social Media: 
https://www.facebook.com/karen.a.fitzgerald.92
https://www.instagram.com/karenfitztv/
https://twitter.com/KarenFitzTV
https://www.linkedin.com/in/karenfitzgeraldtv/

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:08

Welcome to Desire is Medicine. We are two very different women living a life led by desire, inviting you into our world.

Speaker 2: 0:16

I'm Brenda. I'm a devoted practitioner to being my fully expressed true self in my daily life. Motherhood, relationships and my business Desire has taken me on quite a ride and every day I practice listening to and following the voice within.

Speaker 1: 0:32

I'm a middle school teacher turned coach and guide of the feminine, and I'm Catherine, devoted to living my life as the truest and hopefully the highest version of me. I don't have children. I've never been married. I've spent equal parts of my life in corporate, as in some down and low shady spaces. I was the epitome of tired and wired, and my path led me to explore desire. I'm a coach, guide, energy worker and a forever student.

Speaker 2: 0:58

Even after decades of inner work, we are humble beginners on the mat, still exploring, always curious. We believe that listening to and following the nudge of desire is a deep spiritual practice that helps us grow.

Speaker 1: 1:12

On the Desires Medicine podcast. We talk to each other, we interview people we know and love about the practice of desire, bringing in a very important piece that is often overlooked being responsible for our desire, piece.

Speaker 2: 1:25

That is often overlooked being responsible for our desire. Welcome to Desire is Medicine. This is our 36th episode and the fourth episode in our self-love series, where we are slowly and deliciously diving in to what it means to love ourselves and what that looks like in everyday life for women. We want to create a map for you. Today, we are diving into a branch of self-love that I am very excited about, and I know that Catherine is very excited about it as well. Hello, catherine.

Speaker 1: 2:01

Hi, hi, I'm happy to be here, happy for you to introduce our guest.

Speaker 2: 2:08

So exciting. So, before I do introduce our amazing guest that I'm so excited to have today, I want to say that we are going to be talking about self-love as we age. What does that look like? If we want to think differently about aging, we need to start talking differently about aging and to talk about that today we have an amazing guest, my friend and sister on the path, who I have known for over a decade, karen Fitzgerald. Welcome, karen.

Speaker 3: 2:42

Thank you, brenda, good to be here.

Speaker 2: 2:44

It's so good to be here with you. And before we dive into it, I just want to say a little bit about Karen, because if you don't know Karen, she is quite an incredible woman. I like to refer to her as a Renaissance woman because she is multi-talented, she excels in so many areas she sings, she performs, she's a public speaking coach and she is a true stand for women. Every time Karen speaks, or I watch her in a room, I am inspired. On her social media it says I am fierce for love. It's what I teach, what I live, what I stand for and what I want for you and especially as we age. I want that for you, our listeners, I want that for me, I want that for all of us, I want that for my mother, I want that for my daughter, I want that for my future grandchildren. And so we are here to talk about aging and self-love with you, karen, and I'm so happy that you're here today. Thank you.

Speaker 3: 3:50

Thank you, brenda, and I'm happy to talk about it. I'm happy to talk about it. I will just say this I turned 71 this year, on the road to 72, just so people have a sense of what that is in terms of my age. And so ask away and we can discuss.

Speaker 2: 4:10

I love it. Well, since you mentioned it, I think I'm going to start out by just asking you what does it feel like to be a woman of 71? I don't know, you don't know.

Speaker 3: 4:24

I'll tell you why. I'll tell you why, internally, many people may identify like my internal age I feel like it's about 40. I feel like it's about 40. And I remember and I'm in good, I'm in physically very good shape, so I'm very lucky in that way.

Speaker 3: 4:41

But I remember when I was a young woman I was 19 years old, and I went to visit my grandmother and she had blue hair, you know, she had the blue gray hair and she had a polyester pantsuit on and she was very excited about going to see her friend Ruth. But my grandmother had arthritis in her knees, she was bent over, all of that stuff. But watching her enthusiasm and going to the hair salon and all of that, I realized that she is still a young woman in her mind and her body couldn't keep up with her. And I think that that and many other things sort of was an insight for me about the aging process. Because I do feel and physically I've been able to take care of myself and I had a very lucky time with that. So physically I'm in good shape and I have done a lot of health things to really take care of myself. So I don't look like my grandmother at that age.

Speaker 3: 5:36

But but that awareness of we still feel youthful even as our bodies age can Depends on the person and I think one of the difficulties in this culture. Right now I see older people walking down the street and they have bought old, they have bought the concept of old, and so they're bent over, they're shuffling their feet, they may be not fixing themselves up as much as they used to, and I don't do that and I I purposely don't, purposely don't. So I don't know if that comes up with any questions, but it my mother, my mother. My mother passed away at 76 years old. She had a very long-term illness, but she always, even in her illness, she always dressed well. She was originally from San Francisco, she loved fashion, she loved to take care of herself and she did that. And there is a Dylan Thomas quote that says rage, rage against the dying of the light, do not go, gentle, into that good night. And I think that was my mother and I think in some ways that's me.

Speaker 2: 6:53

I love that. Thank you so much for that. Yeah, my grandmother also, my mother's mother dressed to the nines until she couldn't anymore, even well into her nineties when she was in assisted living. She was wearing a hat and a beautiful suit, stockings, nice shoes, her diamonds. It's really beautiful. There's something to that, and I love what you said about all the people on the street who bought old. That is, I love how you put that. They bought old because it doesn't have to be that way. No, no.

Speaker 2: 7:28

Yeah, and so I'm so curious you dropped so many bombs already and I'm loving this. What do you do to take care of yourself, Cause you said you do a lot with your body to take care of yourself. What do you do? So because you clearly haven't bought old. I don't want to buy old, so what do you?

Speaker 3: 7:45

do to so because you clearly haven't bought old.

Speaker 3: 7:47

I don't want to buy old. So what do you do to take care of yourself? Ok, well, first of all, you and I studied the same pleasure principles that we, so we know that. Ok, and I was involved in that program, for and I don't know if you mentioned the program or not, but anyway, I was part of that for 11 years and within that, I did pole dancing for 11 years.

Speaker 3: 8:10

And while I don't have a pole anymore I don't have a pole anymore I'm in a little apartment up in Maine I still do the whole, all the exercises in the morning, so all the core work. So it's core and it's stretching and it's all that. I put on music and I move my body to the music, but it's very much. It's it's a stretching core workout, so I do that. Then I recently signed onto an online body dancing course, so I dance for half an hour. I'll tell you about that later. Uh, I dance for and it's fun. It's just fun. It's not strenuous, but it's. It gets me going. And then, when the weather's nice, I go out for a walk, like about a two mile walk, and it's a spiritual. That's a spiritual practice for me. I don't take my phone, I get out in nature I do my own version of prayer time and I go. I literally have the ocean right down at the end of my street and so I walk a mile and I sit on a rock at the ocean and I absorb all that.

Speaker 3: 9:11

And then in my professional life I have continued to coach people. I coach executives about public speaking. I recently worked with a client this morning my doctor in New York City several years ago. She knew the programs I was studying. She also knew that I became a Tantra educator. So she sent me a woman this morning, one of her patients, who's 40 years old, and we talked about sexuality. I coach people about that stuff. But it is how do you love yourself? I was teaching her on our coaching call how to touch herself, how to love her and not even like from a deeply sexual point of view, but just literally. How do you touch your body and love it, love the touch of your hand upon your skin. How do you do that? I do that for myself. I do that for myself frequently. I'm not in a partnership, I haven't been for quite a while and how do you just touch yourself and appreciate your body? And another thing that I learned. And then, of course, health wise, I do a lot of nutritional stuff, ton of nutritional stuff. I do vitamins, I do lots of fruits and vegetables. I mostly stay awake from junk food, though every so often One must give in. But that I would say those are the big things.

Speaker 3: 10:33

And of course then it's a mental process. It's definitely a mental process about what are my beliefs? What are my beliefs about aging? How do I look at that? Like a lot of self-reflection, and then how do I change it up? How do I look at that? Like a lot of self-reflection, and then how do I change it up? How do I change it up? It's something that I learned down the road is look in the mirror and do a self-love in the mirror. I love you, karen, I really love you. Just really look at yourself in the mirror and say that and then do that for a body part. You know, if you love your hands, I love you, I really love you. You know we learned how to write an ode to your hands or to something that you love. But then how do you also do that for your belly? Because the belly, I will tell you, I work at a woman's clothing shop part time.

Speaker 3: 11:27

I mean, I teach coaching, I do a lot of stuff, and that's also part of the anti aging process, if you will. But so many of the women come in the charming place, it's adorable. But a lot of the women are older and they say, oh, I used to be able to wear this when I was thinner, and now I have a belly. I have a belly, I have a belly, and it's a refrain that we hear over and over again. And as a young woman, I had control over my belly and I sucked it in all the time and I did all these things to keep it.

Speaker 3: 11:58

Well, now, when I hit about 60 or 65, I would say about 60 or 65, I would say Suddenly my belly was saying no, I'm not going in anymore, I'm your womb, I am the womb that your children were birthed in. I am a womb and honor me that way. And so I try to, and sometimes it's an exercise, because I don't want a belly, but I have one. And so how do I look in the mirror and sort of rub her One of the things I learned in Tantra.

Speaker 3: 12:31

Our teacher taught it to us as well. He said to the men and to the women, he said to the men find a woman with a belly and with breasts and with hips, because it's soft and you can sink into it and it's like dough and you can just knead her. You know kneading as in bread, you know, and I feel that for myself, I feel that for myself like honor, honor the breasts, honor the belly, honor the hips, and yeah, the body changes, body absolutely changes, and looking at yourself in the mirror is one of the things that you really have to deal with.

Speaker 2: 13:11

It's really true. I love how you're saying the body changes. The body gets older, that is true, we can't deny that. Yeah, but the way we relate to it can change. That's right and I think that's what you're saying. And it's really about embracing ourselves and embracing our parts, and I love that. You said I don't want a belly, but I've got one.

Speaker 2: 13:33

I mean, I feel the same way. You know, she's just there, she's just like hello, and I also really love her softness. She's soft, yeah, yeah. She's soft, yeah, yeah. I think that's beautiful, and I don't always feel that way every day, you know. I think that's a really important piece that I want to bring out, that this is a practice and it's okay Sometimes it just be like oh, I have a belly and I don't want one, like. I think that if we don't do that, we're bypassing Exactly, exactly.

Speaker 3: 14:09

Yeah, it's. I mean there are days I will look in the mirror and some days I look and I say, oh, pretty good, and then it's like, oh, are you kidding Really, are you kidding Right?

Speaker 3: 14:19

And you know the neck, you know years ago, nora Ephron the writer wrote a, wrote a book about you know, the neck. You know, years ago, nora Ephron the writer wrote a, wrote a book about you know what happened to my neck or something, and I read it when I was probably 60. And I didn't have the neck issues at that moment and I'm thinking, what was she talking about? Her neck, you know? Like what is that? Well, I have the neck, the neck is aging, the neck is aging, the face is aging and I haven't done anything to it, nothing.

Speaker 3: 14:45

I mean, some people choose to, and I get that, but I have chosen not to, partly because I don't like a lot of medical intervention and I'm not looking to have things injected into my forehead that I don't really understand. But the other thing I have a daughter who's 40 years, 41 years old, and I want her to not be ashamed of her own aging process. Yeah, and so I look good, I also look. I mean, people used to think I was 15 years younger than I am. That's not so much the case anymore. I think I still look a little bit younger, but not not that, and you know that was a big compliment. Oh, you don't look your age, you know, well, no, but I do, some level I do, and it's okay. It's okay, yeah, and I kind of get a kick out of telling people.

Speaker 2: 15:48

I'm 71. What kind of reactions do you get?

Speaker 3: 15:51

Well, sometimes it's that, sometimes it's oh my God, are you kidding, you don't look it. But I think mostly I get that because energetically I don't act it and it doesn't mean like I'm goofy and silly and all that, but it is energetically me. I was talking to somebody this morning in a spiritual program that I'm in and I said you know, I questioned my life purpose and she said I heard a great definition of life purpose. She said shine your light and enjoy life. And that's what I'm doing. That's what I'm doing. And so people I think people respond like oh my God, you don't look your age, that's what I'm doing. And so people I think people respond like oh my God, you don't look your age. I think it's more, you're energetically very different than a lot of people. Your age, yeah, you're not buying old, I'm not buying old. I'm not buying old and I won't. It is yeah.

Speaker 2: 16:49

I really love how you said you, you don't want your daughter to be ashamed of her own aging process, right? You want her to age well and feel good about that along the way. And you realize that you're modeling that as you go.

Speaker 3: 17:02

Exactly.

Speaker 2: 17:03

And I don't think that I don't know, but I don't think this was really talked about in previous generations. Do you have any thoughts on that?

Speaker 3: 17:12

No, I don't think so either. I don't remember my mother. My mother didn't like aging. My mother was very clear about it, of course, from the time she was 60, she was very sick. So she didn't like aging, she fought it. She dyed her hair. Her hair started going gray when she was in her 50s and she dyed it herself because she couldn't afford you know the salon situation and she dyed every color. One time she was going for auburn and it turned orange. It's just amazing.

Speaker 3: 17:42

And she finally, when she was ill, she finally had to let it go gray, silver gray, and she looked amazing. She looked amazing and she looked amazing. She looked amazing because it was. She had dark skin. It was a natural look for her. She looked better than she had looked in years. And it was a lesson to me about I mean, I don't do anything to my hair. You can see there's not a lot of silver in it but I don't do anything to it and I thought, well, if I do go gray, it's going gray, it's going gray. So I don't know, tell me the question. You remember the question you just asked me, cause I think I went off track here.

Speaker 2: 18:17

I don't remember the question. I asked you, but I am so excited to talk about hair now.

Speaker 3: 18:23

I think we need to dive into hair.

Speaker 2: 18:26

And when you said this is your natural color. Our listeners can't see you, but you have beautiful brown hair.

Speaker 3: 18:35

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 18:36

I would have thought for sure that you dyed it.

Speaker 3: 18:38

Everybody thinks I dye it, I don't touch it. I don't touch it. I went well. It started well, my father, my father, was a sandy haired redhead and he had some gray in it but he never really went. He died at 89. He never really went. I started to get some a little touch of gray when I was in my 50s and I thought, okay, you know it's going and it really hasn't changed. I mean it hasn't changed. So yeah, it's still, it's still this color, and but I also knew that if it did change. So let's talk hair.

Speaker 2: 19:09

Let's talk hair I'm so excited about this as I sit here, growing out my own gray, which I started in. I started right before the pandemic. I started in January of 2020.

Speaker 2: 19:21

I had been thinking about it for the year before. I was in my early fifties at the time. I'm 55 now, so I was maybe 51, 52. And I had been thinking about it, but not quite ready. It took me a while. It took me a few more rounds of dyeing my hair to really get into agreement with it and in January 2020, I said I'm not dyeing my hair again, I'm just doing it. I'm just letting it go gray. So I was really intrigued about that and it's kind of the style. I don't know if that's still the style now in 2024. But in years past it's been the style for younger women to dye their hair gray. I mean, yeah, they want to embrace their wisdom, because we've got some wisdom as we get older, and so my hair right now is a real mix of gray and brown and I'm surprised that in four years it's not fully gray and I'm really having a good time in the process. Good, Good. I love letting it grow out and I love that you said that you would let it grow out.

Speaker 3: 20:27

Well, I've seen your pictures on Facebook and I you know, I think I have affirmed your pictures, like you've talked about the gray and you've talked about the change, and some of your writing has been beautiful about all of this, in fact, and yeah, I affirm it because you look great, looks wonderful and it is a. It's a statement. It's a statement and I know that. Thank you.

Speaker 2: 20:51

Yeah, yeah, you know. For me, both of my grandmothers lived well into their 90s.

Speaker 2: 20:57

I really had the privilege of having grandmothers for a long time. One of my grandmothers dyed her hair. I used to go with her as a little girl to the lady on the corner and she would have her hair dyed, and she did that really until she couldn't anymore, maybe until she was about 90. And then she did go gray. My other grandmother, my mother's mother, the one who would wear the suits and the diamonds she went gray. I think I've never known her to have brown hair. So I really had these two beautiful models, one who dyed her hair and one who didn't. So I don't really have judgment on it either way, and I like dyeing my hair, but I'm having a really good time growing it out, oh, yeah, and it's simple.

Speaker 3: 21:38

I mean it's symbolic of somebody. I've seen some women my age and older who have got the purple streak. You know they've got that, they've got the white hair, and then they do the purple streak or they do. I think it's fun, I mean whatever people. It's sort of like artistic as well, but it's also whatever you choose to do can be a statement.

Speaker 2: 21:59

It is. For me, it's been about embracing my age. Yeah, yeah, it's been about. It's been just helping me drop into the truth of my body, the truth of where I am, that I am a 55-year-old woman, and it's helped me embrace my body changing and my wisdom.

Speaker 3: 22:20

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2: 22:22

You know, maybe the belly isn't what it used to be, but the wisdom is really there. It's growing every day.

Speaker 3: 22:28

Yes, it does, it accumulates over you kind of can't help it. If you're self-reflective, yes, and I think I know that you have been very much so and I have been as well, and I think that that so spiritually, I have a pretty strong spiritual life, and I will say that I have done 12-step programs and for me that's been Al-Anon, because I came from an alcoholic family. All that sort of thing and the inquiry that goes into that and the self-awareness that grows out of it and the ego structure that you look at, is imperative and it informs me in terms of what my belief systems are and how do I look at them and how do I let them go and how do I take responsibility for my life. And I went into so many people who, for whatever reason, are not aware of that kind of work or don't do that kind of work and they blame their life situation on other people, other things. And I have learned that I've been on a rather perfect journey. I went through the blaming thing too, and then I came out of the blaming thing and I thought, oh, this is why, this is why, this is why I mean I I will say this I was married for 25 years.

Speaker 3: 23:52

I have two children. They're grown and it was a very difficult marriage. He was a very emotionally shut I won't get into all the detail but he was a very emotionally shut down guy and he traveled. He was a workaholic, he traveled all the time and he was very emotionally removed and I filed for divorce when the kids went off to college and for a lot of very good reasons and but that set me on the journey of exploring women's embodiment, women's pleasure, tantra, and then the things I learned about relationship within that, relationship to myself, relationships with other people, and what I bring to the table and what I didn't bring to the table. So I think self-reflection is a very exciting road to wisdom. It's a very exciting road to wisdom and probably one of the most exciting things that I've done is and continue to do I mean, it ain't over till it's over. And yeah, yeah, and with it.

Speaker 3: 25:05

Yeah, so there's that. And then also finding passion, and I don't mean sexual passion, though that's definitely possible. Passion in your life. What do you love to do? What do you want to? What do you want to learn? What do you want to practice? What do you want to? What is, what is your life guiding you toward the desire piece that you talk about in your title. Desire.

Speaker 2: 25:26

I've heard a few things about that.

Speaker 3: 25:28

Yes, I'm sure. Yeah, I know you have.

Speaker 2: 25:30

Speaking of desire, I want to see what's coming up for Catherine here as we pause to get into desire a little bit more.

Speaker 1: 25:39

So many things. Thank you for asking. I would love some clarification. I think the two of you kind of are on the same page on something specific that you're speaking of, but I'd love to sort of make it even clearer for anybody that's listening. So when you say and this is in reference to the buying old and I'm going to use it in air quotes I don't know if we buy it with money, if we buy it with thoughts, what if somebody said well, Karen, what does buying old mean? Because you're saying I did not buy into it?

Speaker 1: 26:15

It's sort of two pronged, because in the same conversation we sort of spoke about how some people age differently. Some people may be hunched back over. They're sort of shuffling their feet. We talked about hair graying, not graying. I'm thinking of golden girls right, they were all sort of like gray.

Speaker 1: 26:31

I'm of the belief system that sometimes we gray, it's like often a mineral deficiency, but I don't want to go down that rabbit hole. I'm more of okay. So some of us start to gray, Some of us don't. Some of us color our hair, Some of us don't how? How does that then? Is it part of the buying old? Is it not part of the buying old in your perspective, or, yeah, so what does actually buying old mean? And does this mean, if you're not buying old and you're doing it like the Karen way, I'm going to make your name an action. If we do this in this way, then does that mean that we're just I'm going to move, I'm not going to believe that I can't move because that's what happens air quotes, potentially when you age, or I'm going to put my attention on my pleasure because of that's what I'm thinking. But I want to make sure that that is what the definition is of buying and not buying.

Speaker 3: 27:27

I think it's a good question and a complex answer, because the buying old when I say it, it's I don't know where I coined that phrase from, I think I made it up, but it the whole culture sets up a belief system about when you're old, you know. I mean Hollywood says when a woman is old and you hear actresses talk about it all the time once you hit 40, there are very few roles for you and we don't even see our stories. We don't even see our stories on film. So Hollywood has bought old and it has sold young. It has sold young, thin and beautiful and sexually attractive in the cultural sense of the word, then, and you're appealing. That makes you appealing, whatever that is and, yes, this is about sexuality right now, but it also it plays into so much about our image as women. And then you hit 40 and suddenly somebody was talking about this the other day they're not getting the comments from men that they used to get, not that, that's that, that that's the whole credibility, but it's a piece of this and or they're not getting looks or they're ignored. When you go into, when you go into a store and you're looking for customer service and you're older, you can be ignored pretty easily.

Speaker 3: 28:56

And so there's a belief in the culture about what old is. And so if you believe that, if you buy into that, too many people, too many women in this woman's group that we were part of, I had women come up to me and say I'm turning 40. Is my life over, right? No, your life is not over, but. But the culture has told you in some sort of definitive way, by the programs you see, by television, by media, by every freaking thing that you see, you know that it's over, and so that's a belief system that's part of a whole lot of different beliefs within that. I don't know if that's answering your question. So when I say that I'm not buying old, I dress young. I mean, you, can, they, the, the audience can't see me, but you can see me. I'm wearing V-neck right now. I occasionally have a little bit of cleavage showing. Okay, and it's not to defy old, it's because I like it. Okay, and I like to see it in older women. I there's a there's a defiance piece to butting up against the culture. Okay, there's a defiance piece, and it's not like it's not angry. Sometimes it's angry, but most of the time it's not angry, it is. That's a belief system, a huge cultural belief system that we have been fed, and I choose not to follow that belief system.

Speaker 3: 30:32

Now, what that means in terms of dying your hair or not dying your hair, it can mean anything. I mean you might let yourself go gray because it's fashionable and you want to be trendy, okay. Or or you want to age gray. So you know it's. That's just a sort of surface symbolic thing about what it is. But it is all of these things on the surface, they're surfacy. You know how I'm dressed? I have so cleavage. Who cares? Right, I have, you know, gray hair. Who cares? But it's an act of I call it adorable rebellion against the cultural norms that have been set up for us as women. And I don't know if that answers the question or a piece of the question. Feel free to ask some more.

Speaker 1: 31:27

It definitely answers a piece of the question. I'm actually hearing something underneath your response, so I'll just offer that what I'm hearing, which is, I feel like you've given aging some reflection and it's really beautiful. I've heard you talk about it at different points in today's conversation, where you spoke about wanting to model something different for your daughter and then you've so beautifully detailed what adorable rebellion against cultural norms is for you, right, like, okay, I'm going to wear a v-neck. Sometimes I will show cleavage, my neck is out, right.

Speaker 1: 32:13

And I love this reflection piece because it clears up what I'm hearing is buying old. At first I was like okay, what does that mean? And as I hear you speak more about it, I'm like oh, okay, it's about the media or society or whomever on one side selling me something like an idea and I either buy it or don't buy it. I'm either I'm going to participate in this paradigm. Yes, thank you. Now I can just sit down at 40 and my life is over my age, appropriateness, or I'm not seeing the things that happened to me or people my age on film. So therefore it must mean that we just go to the home or sit on rocking chairs or whatever that is. We don't participate anymore in either table discussions or in just being with people in life, because that's really what I think living is. And then so I love this part that you've introduced, that I hear that sounds like such a loving reflection when you say, oh, these are surfacy things. That's true. We're either buying or not buying the things that are being sold, about things that are on the surface. But what I hear you saying as part of that not buying, is actual reflection. What is good for me, what do I like? What don't I like? What do I enjoy? How do I want to dress? How do I want to move throughout the world?

Speaker 1: 33:46

And I agree I think that there's something else that you said earlier that I'll bring in here that to a certain extent, there's somewhat of a compliment when people say, oh, you don't look your age right, or something along those lines. And then, at the same time, there are places when we know exactly how old we are. I'm 50. There are things that I cannot physically do that I could at 20 or 18. It's just 30, 35. It's just not physically, it's not the same and, at the same token token, nor do I want to. It's not available to me and I already lived it. It already happened. I don't have to have groundhog day for 33 for the rest of my life like you. Get to live a little differently.

Speaker 1: 34:40

Last thing I'm going to bring in here is you spoke about something and I'd really like to bring in a little nuance around this, because I hear this conversation a lot from women, especially younger women, and when I say younger I mean between like 20 and 30, which I just find fascinating. When we talk about injections and shots and things like that, and when women are like looking at their friends who are, I have no idea why that is occurring in that age group. I'm completely baffled, because that's like the stage of high collagen and elasticity to be thinking about something that potentially is occurring in, you know, the third quarter of your life. This is not about the first quarter of your life, right? But without that, I hear women say, well, I'm never going to do that. And then there are women that are like this is just like remodeling your house, I'm going to absolutely do it. So I've heard both sides and what I've heard you say today.

Speaker 1: 35:42

Around this same, there's a place where you just pause and really feel into is this for me? Is this not for me, and it's less about I'm never going to do that or oh, yes, this is perfect for me. This is like oh, I've thought about this and I've decided that this is actually how I would prefer to live. This is not about the injection or not the injection. For me, this is about.

Speaker 1: 36:07

You know, one piece was to set an example for your daughter, and so what I would like to offer people who are listening is I'd love to invite people to feel into what is good for them so that they can be a role model for others, and that it's less about what is right and what is wrong, because I feel like now this conversation has become I am the person that's going to eject.

Speaker 1: 36:30

No, I am the person that is not going to inject. I am right, I am right. And then we just have more separation around something of no, let's just pause and eliminate who else we're looking at and what is right for me. And you have so generously and gorgeously like, set an example of what that looks like for an aging woman, because it's very different for a woman in her thirties and forties to say you know what, I'm never going to cover my neck. It's very different for you to think about. I'm not going to cover my neck when, potentially, it would be a time that you would be covering your neck over, you know, 70 or above. You're not thinking about that at that stage, and that was such a gorgeous example of a woman really pausing to feel into what's right for you.

Speaker 3: 37:17

Yeah, thank you. Thank you so much. It the the thing about injections and no injections. You know I used to be pretty judgmental about it and my background besides being a public speaking coach and a sensuality coach and all that I was an actor for many, many years and I took acting classes in New York City.

Speaker 3: 37:36

It was the center of you know all of that. And I had a lot of young women in the class who were 20 and 25 years old and they said, oh my God, I'm going to have to start getting injections because I won't get any roles. And then in another breath, you know, we'd all be performing and I'd be doing some big dramatic scene and they'd say I want to be you when I grow up, I want to be like you when I grow up. But we would talk after class and they felt so much pressure to do all of this, whether they wanted it or not. I sensed that a lot of them did not want it, at least at that age, but they felt incredible pressure because they all wanted to work in television and film, because it was a television film class. So that was a very interesting perspective and as I've gotten older, you know I used to judge it. I saw a lot of injectables in New York and I used to judge it.

Speaker 3: 38:28

And as I've gotten older, I have looked at it and I and I realize some people do it because I mean, like I said, I feel like I'm 40 inside and I don't look like I'm 40. And well, hey, what if I could? You know, I do this thing, yet that the audience can't see this, but I do this thing in the mirror, I do this and I do this. Uh, you know, I, I adjust my eyes and all of that to see if I got a facelift or whatever, and ultimately I get why people do it. I absolutely get why people do it.

Speaker 3: 38:58

And and I don't and I don't partly because of the medical issues around it, but also, you know where does it end? I read about serious movie stars. In fact I, I met a television star, one one night at a Broadway show and, um, she had had so much work done it almost looked painful to see it at that point. And I've read about different people who really get addicted to it, like they don't want their legs to sag and they don't want their thighs to sag and they don't, so they I don't know where it ends, because we are going to get older, we're just going to get older and it's going to happen. So it's not a judgment call, it's it really is more of a personal decision, and I get that and I, like you said, I've just decided. For me this is not the easiest path, but the one that feels the most organic for me.

Speaker 1: 39:55

Yeah, Thank you. What a gorgeous way of modeling it. The thing that came to mind when you were speaking was um was it's as if we're fighting against gravity. Sort of I mean fighting against aging is one thing, but it's really like fighting against gravity.

Speaker 2: 40:14

Some of it is going to stick.

Speaker 1: 40:17

It is just a gravitational pull. There is just no.

Speaker 1: 40:21

But thank you so much, brenda, for asking. Those were the things that were sort of popping up for me, like what does buying old mean? What does it mean to not do that? And then just the gorgeous way in which Karen has gone into these crevices with so much self-reflection, with so much self-reflection, what feels to be like real choice and honoring. Even when you talk about the younger women who felt somewhat pressured because they want to be casted, I think about that and I'm like, oh, a stance at that stage in your life, right now, might just eliminate you from that field. Potentially right For some. Yeah, exactly, and making the choice and being willing that choice to not do that would mean that you're willing to then not work right, potentially.

Speaker 3: 41:19

Yeah, totally, brenda all you.

Speaker 2: 41:25

That was a beautiful exchange. I really love that. Thank you both so much. And it has me think about the pressure that we all have. I was going to say younger people like the women in your acting class, but it's really all of us. There's so much pressure, you know, to fix this, inject that, pull that cup. You know, just don't be who you are, don't grow old. You know. It really is that ageism that we're seeing and I was so curious, it's so interesting, how those young women felt. It's like the double bind, like they're not going to get the roles if they look older, but then at the same time, they wanted to be you Right, what they loved about you is what I love about you because you are it's all the things that you've been saying that you're vivacious and you follow your pleasure and your desire and you're you're doing what you want in your life.

Speaker 2: 42:28

And I'm curious what would you say to those women who are who believe that? What would you say to them?

Speaker 3: 42:37

That's a hard one. That's a hard one it because? Well, what I would say to them is don't do it. Don't do it If it's against. If it's not a problem for you, like, if you're not having that struggle and you want to be in film, no matter. I mean, you hear this in the Me Too movie. You hear stuff coming out of Hollywood. You know women had to do all kinds of things to even get seen for a role and and if you're comfortable getting whatever you need to do with your face or whatever, if you're comfortable for that, okay, okay. But if you're not, don't. Don't buck your own value system. Don't buck your own value system. Don't buck your own value system. Don't defy your own value system because in fact, there can be ways around it.

Speaker 3: 43:32

Barbara Streisand was told she was ugly. Meryl Streep auditioned for King Kong. She tells this story. She auditioned for King Kong on a camera. She was a new actress. Nobody knew who she was and the director of it was Italian and he said to his son brought her in. His son thought she was brilliant. His son brought her in for the audition and the director said to his son in Italian she's too ugly. She's too ugly, right, and she spoke Italian. And she said to him I speak Italian, so she tells that story. She tells that story and Meryl Streep went on to be Meryl Streep, barbra Streisand.

Speaker 3: 44:10

They told her to fix her nose. They told her she was ugly. They told her she was, but the desire and the drive were so strong that she did it anyway. There's another actress named Ruth Gordon, and they told her she was homely and weird and they sent her home. They sent her back to the Midwest and she said I'm not going. So there's a way and it doesn't mean anybody's going to make it or not make it or whatever that is, but there's a way to stay true to your values.

Speaker 3: 44:37

And when they would talk to me about it, I think we would have those conversations. It's been a long time since I had those conversations with people, but I think that's pretty much what I said to them. You know, you can't. I had an acting teacher who said to me, which was a great compliment Well, first of all, he said watching you on stage is interesting, he says, because sometimes you're so homely, you're almost ugly. And he said and other times you're so beautiful, you almost look like Liz Taylor. Right, he said you have this flexibility as a person, as an actor. But he also said I've never known somebody who is more real than you are, who is more you than you. You know, like just there's no bullshit, excuse my language, but anyway and I would say that for people like get to know yourself, get to know yourself and who you are and what your value system is for yourself, and that will guide you. That will guide you Best advice ever.

Speaker 1: 45:37

Yeah, Something jumps out at me with what you're saying, because there's tons of honesty there. The truth is that, yeah, not everybody's Meryl Streep right? And?

Speaker 1: 45:48

it's very possible that somebody chooses to not do that and that that path doesn't open, right, exactly, and but what I'm hearing right now that we haven't really talked about is the cost. So let's say that you decide I don't want to be Meryl Streisand, I don't want to be Barbara Streisand. I can actually change my nose or, you know, be prettier in some way, shape or form whatever adjustment someone gave you, and so you buy it, just like buying old. You buy the adjustment, the physical adjustment, and I think that, hopefully, whatever we are looking to gain is worth the cost, because there is a cost it's reminding me of, I don't know why.

Speaker 1: 46:42

The parallel that comes up to me is when women are in relationships and they stay really long because they want to stay with the husband, because of the children. That's what's coming to my mind, and it's like, yes, you have the family unit together, but your children are also seeing a dysfunctional couple relate. Right, that is the cost. So same same there. We are doing our best to get whatever job I want to say movie, but that's not what I mean Whatever status quo thing with our youthfulness in some way, or beauty in some way, our standard beauty and we do something. Potentially the Me Too movement falls into that as well. We do something in order to have it and then there's a cost, and I don't know if we as women often share with other women, like sometimes the cost is a little bit of our soul.

Speaker 3: 47:43

Yeah, yes, it is. Yes, it is. That's beautifully said and I did that. I was in a 25-year empty marriage and I stayed for the sake of the kids and the financial security of it, like he was going to take care of us, and it was dysfunctional. And how much of yourself do you compromise? And I did that for a very long time until, through absolute terror, terror I left and the other side opened up into who do you want to be, karen, and who are you? And let's go on that road of discovery and that's what the last. So that was 20 years ago that I left and in that time frame, it's all these things I talked about. You know, I studied pleasure, I studied tantra. I traveled the world teaching public speaking. I taught at Facebook and Amazon.

Speaker 3: 48:48

I'm a singer. I'm going to be doing a gig up here pretty soon and I mention that because and I coach and I love coaching when I get a client that I really resonate with, I just love it Because you get to share the wisdom and also learn from them. You get to really engage and you know I've coached on so many different issues, but one of the things that I would say is I still look for what gives me passion and one of them is singing. I've been a singer my whole adult life and I got lucky enough when I moved back up here. You know, I was a star up here in New England years ago and I moved back up and things had changed. Let's put it that way. I went to the Kittery Maine farmer's market one day and they had a musician there playing some sort of jazz piano and I recognized him and I went up and I said Ray, is that you? And he said Karen, you're back. This is 20 years later. And I said yeah. He said are you still singing? I said yeah. He said let's do a couple tunes. So I made my debut at the Kittery Farmer's Market and I've done little gigs with him. I mean, I used to do big Broadway type shows and stuff. I've done little gigs and it's fun and it's just fun. And now we're going to do something a little bit bigger coming up this month.

Speaker 3: 50:11

But follow and I want to meet more people, which is why I'm working at that shop. I do not. I work on Zoom a lot. I don't want to just work on Zoom, I want to get out and I want to meet people. So all of that drives me to do the next thing and the next thing and the next thing and not just stay home. And it's easy to stay home and be complacent and to watch a bad rom-com because or a sexier show like Bridgerton right, which I really did, like I have to say. But you know, let's get out in the world and let's continue to get out in the world and let's continue to find the thing, whatever, at whatever level you're at. And, like I said, I exercise, I don't. I don't dance, I dance. I still dance well, but I don't do all the dancing I used to do. You know, some of it's more strenuous than I'm doing now, but you adjust and you find the things that still give you passion.

Speaker 2: 51:08

Yeah, it's such a pleasure to watch you do these things. I've seen you in shows and I would love to be in the audience again. It's just a pleasure to watch you Like it feels good when we live our passion. It's it's just a pleasure to watch you Like it feels good when we live our passion. It feels good for the people around us and you model that so beautifully.

Speaker 3: 51:30

Thank you. Yeah, I haven't come up with it. Brenda saw, I did a cabaret show, uh, and I cast six other women with me. That's the one you saw. Right, I wrote a solo show too, and I did it in New York. But the cabaret show was a hoot and the idea downloaded to me the women. I was told what women to use and I put it together and I wrote it and directed it and performed in it and it was a hoot and fun and it had a point of view. Had a point of view.

Speaker 2: 51:59

I love it. It's beautiful. I want to get this in because this is such a joyful part of aging. Is that you recently became a grandmother? Yes, congratulations. I really wanted to put that in here, and I'm so happy and tickled that this baby is just a few days old and that we get you as a new grandma talking about aging. It's such a joyful part of aging, so congratulations.

Speaker 3: 52:27

Thank you, and she's, absolutely. She was, I'll tell the audience. She was eight pounds, 14 ounces and she's beautiful and really good. I was talking to my daughter today and she said you, she's sleeping, she's eating, she's, she's good. You know, um, first baby, first grandbaby, and so it's it's. I just keep looking at pictures, like they keep sending me pictures, and I just keep looking at pictures of her. I mean, I held her the other day and I'm going up tomorrow as well, because they're only an hour away, and I've told my daughter you know, call me, I will be here and here. And so, yeah, it's a whole other, it's a whole other step. Yet to unfold, yet to unfold. So, thank you, such a joy and she's only three days old.

Speaker 2: 53:14

Such a blessing. I can't wait to watch this unfold for you. Thank you, and I do have another question for you. I said we would go back to desire earlier. This is one of my favorite questions and I'm really excited to ask you this question.

Speaker 3: 53:34

Okay, what is one of your big desires right now? Oh, big desire and I've experimented with it a little bit A big desire right now is to have a wonderful companion, a sensual companion. A wonderful companion, a sensual companion. I had a much younger man in my life, which we ended at five years ago, but he was really a. He was very healing for me in so many ways and he was a real gem and I don't want him to have been the love of my life. He was great, but it was a year and a half.

Speaker 3: 54:01

I would like, I would like to have a legendary love, and I also know I think I know that probably don't need to live together, don't need to get married again, but but we can cohabitate when we want to and he's very sensual and he's fun and he definitely could be younger not as young as the last one, but younger. And because I learned a lot there. I learned a lot. He was actually a really wonderful man and I learned a lot about what I want in a relationship. I mean, he treated me like a queen and and I want more of that so that I can treat him as well like a king and and I did so the experiment I did a friend of mine hooked me up with a retired physician last year and it became rather sensual rather quickly and it was very pleasurable, except he had a lot of personal issues that we really didn't need to be dealing with.

Speaker 3: 55:04

He wanted me to tell him I loved him by the second date and I was like, no, it's a little too quick. So there was the end of that one, and then I met a gentleman this year who was 12 years older. Lovely man, definitely. Let me know he wants a sensual relationship now, but for a lot of it just wasn't it. It just wasn't it. So I'm still available and still looking, and, uh, and and and I want it the way I want it.

Speaker 2: 55:37

I want it the way I want it. Oh yeah, you do.

Speaker 3: 55:41

Yeah, and my mother came through at a psychic. I went to a psychic one day and I won't get into the whole thing about what the psychic said to me, but she said your mother's coming through and she said my mother said a variety of things there and I think it was my mother, it sounded like it could be. And she said and about men, do not settle, Do not settle, Do not settle. And I had. So that's what I mean when I say I want it the way I want it. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 56:12

Well, that's beautiful. Well, so shall it be, and even better than you can possibly even imagine. Exactly as you want it Better and wetter. Thank you. Imagine exactly as you want it better and wetter. Thank you, catherine. Is there anything that you want to pop in and add here?

Speaker 1: 56:28

no, just. Thank you so much, karen, for your generosity. Oh you're welcome Catherine.

Speaker 3: 56:33

You're welcome, brother. It's a. It was a joy to do it. It's a, you know, because it also helps me to continue to reflect. You know, like people if you ask specific questions like oh, oh, what have I thought about that? So I appreciate that it was fun and the both of you are very thoughtful and insightful, so it's a joy.

Speaker 2: 56:54

Thank you so much. Is there anything that you want to say that you feel that you didn't say before we close out that?

Speaker 3: 57:06

no, I think I said it, but I'll just reiterate it that I would invite people to follow their passions, like whatever it is. I have a lot of friends of mine who have fallen in love playing pickleball. I haven't played it, I may never play it, but they're excited about it, and it's a lot of older people as well as younger people. And so go do it. You know, I have another friend of mine who asked me to go salsa dancing with him last year, which I did, and he's 74. And he wanted to salsa dance. So we went and salsa danced and, like, whatever the passion is that's calling you it could be gardening, do it, just do it, you know, because that's the thing, that's the thing that gives you vitality, it's the thing, it's how you have an adorable rebellion against aging.

Speaker 2: 58:04

And have a good time doing it Exactly.

Speaker 3: 58:06

Exactly Fun. It's like I said earlier. Somebody said to me your purpose in life is to shine your light and to have fun. Enjoy life, enjoy life. So what is it for you that will help you enjoy life more?

Speaker 2: 58:21

What a beautiful question to end on. Thank you so much. Thank you, Karen. It has been a true pleasure to have you. Thank you so much for being here with us today.

Speaker 3: 58:31

Thank you Brenda, Thank you Catherine, and blessings to you both.

Speaker 2: 58:42

Thank you for joining us on the Desire is Medicine podcast.

Speaker 1: 58:46

Desire invites us to be honest, loving and deeply intimate with ourselves and others. You can find our handles in the show notes. We'd love to hear from you.