Desire As Medicine Podcast
Catherine & Brenda interview people and talk to each other about desire. They always come back to us being 100% responsible for our desires.
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desireasmedicine@gmail.com
catherine@catherinenavarro.com
goddessbrenda24@gmail.com
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@Brenda_Fredericks
Desire As Medicine Podcast
62 ~ Loving Without Interfering: The Art of Stepping Back
Have you ever found yourself itching to intervene in someone else’s business - oops, journey, lol - only to realize that stepping back could be the most loving act of all?
Join us as we unravel the art of accepting others just as they are. We begin by wrestling with the difficult concept of letting go, allowing loved ones to navigate their own paths—even when they're headed toward a metaphorical train wreck. By acknowledging their divine journey and trusting in their inherent wisdom, we explore how our impulse to ‘save’ might stifle their growth. Together, we investigate the power of autonomy, offering love without absorbing their chaos.
We explore the delicate dance between helping and controlling, particularly in parenting. Picture this: homework time turns into a battleground of wills. Reflecting on these moments, we address our imperfections and the discomfort that arises from witnessing struggles. Is our desire to help rooted in genuine concern, or is it a veil for our own need to control? Through our shared anecdotes, we invite you to cultivate self-awareness, learning when to lend a hand and when to step back. This delicate balance encourages others to learn, grow, and ultimately thrive on their own terms.
As we move towards the heart of acceptance, we emphasize the importance of personal responsibility and emotional sobriety. Consider this an invitation to embrace neutrality, express feelings without judgment, and set boundaries to maintain your well-being. By staying grounded and recognizing your choices, you allow yourself and others the space to flourish.
The episode concludes by exploring the peace that blooms from loving acceptance, inspiring a shift from chaos to trust. Join Brenda and Catherine for a journey of acceptance, trust, and the embrace of authentic connection.
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Email:
desireasmedicine@gmail.com
goddessbrenda24@gmail.com
catherine@catherinenavarro.com
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@Brenda_Fredericks
@CoachCatherineN
Welcome to Desire is Medicine. We are two very different women living a life led by desire.
Speaker 2:Inviting you into our world. I'm Brenda. I'm a devoted practitioner to being my fully expressed true self in my daily life, motherhood relationships and my business Desire has taken me on quite a ride and every day I practice listening to and following the voice within. I'm a middle school teacher turned coach and guide of the feminine.
Speaker 1:And I'm, catherine, devoted to living my life as the truest and hopefully the highest version of me. I don't have children, I've never been married. I've spent equal parts of my life in corporate as in some down and low shady spaces. I was the epitome of tired and wired and my path led me to explore desire. I'm a coach, guide, energy worker and a forever student.
Speaker 2:Even after decades of inner work, we are humble beginners on the mat, still exploring, always curious. We believe that listening to and following the nudge of desire is a deep spiritual practice that helps us grow.
Speaker 1:On the Desires Medicine podcast. We talk to each other, we interview people we know and love about the practice of desire, bringing in a very important piece that is often overlooked being responsible for our desire. Hello and welcome back. Hello, family and listeners, friends, so happy to have you. Without you, it would just be me and Brenda hanging out. So thank you so much for listening. Today we have a juicy topic. It is how can we let people be where they are, aren't you?
Speaker 2:psyched for this one, brenda. Hey, brenda, so psyched. I think this is a really tricky one for people, really tricky. How do you let people be where they are?
Speaker 1:Absolutely it's really tricky, because how do you let people be where they are? Absolutely it's really tricky because, well, we're all geniuses and we just know how to live other people's lives so well. It's like my way is so much better than the way this peon is thinking of doing their thing. I can see the train wreck coming. Maybe they're about to lose their spouse or spend all their money, or they need to stop gambling, or they need to stop drinking, or they need to wake up on time, or I want them to take cold plunges or whatever. Insert said thing, I think. Or maybe they're depressed and I'm like you don't have anything to be depressed about. Get happy and joyful, god darn it. But it's a trip right.
Speaker 1:Allowing people to just be where they are and have that be okay, is such a portal. It's like a portal of growth. One of the things that made that possible for me was to remember that all humans are a spark of God and they are a divine soul and their soul knows better than me. Their human may need my help, their human may have a question, and I can communicate with that human and interact with that human, but always trusting that, with or without me, they're going to make it. I don't have to be in their life for them not to make it. I trust that God has got their back. I don't have to be the last stop on their train station. God has them eternally and that it is not my responsibility either to be their last stop. I will do what I can and what is within my range, but I cannot then abandon myself, like not take care of myself, maybe not eat, sleep or take care of my own responsibilities, because I feel that, uh-oh, this person and their train wreck whatever their train wreck is is more important than what's happening in my life, because maybe my life doesn't have a lot of chaos and I think I get all this anxious sensations in my body. This person has tons of chaos and I have to fix it. No, I get all this anxious sensations in my body. This person has tons of chaos and I have to fix it. No, I don't. This person can perfectly be in their chaos. I do not have to take them out of it. It is such a gift to allow people to be where they are in their own process, without feeling sorry for them. Allow them to be in their process by seeing them as fully capable.
Speaker 1:And then I have heard this question. So what does helping look like, right? Helping in this case would be oh, I see this train wreck coming such and such, or would you like my help in some way? Did you want a reflection? Would you like to be heard or seen in anything? And if the person says no, then it's a no, there's no consent, and the best thing I can do for them is not give them advice. The best thing I can do for them in that moment is love them where they are. Maybe I see them as imperfect or maybe I have my own judgments about where they are and recognize these are my judgments. I get to still love them in their mess. I get to still love them in their chaos, and my job is to not take their chaos on. All right, boom end sermon. What comes up for you, brenda?
Speaker 2:Wow, okay, first of all, you're saying, oh, it's just a gift to let people be where they are. I would love for you to say more about that, because people are listening and they're like I don't see how this could be a gift. If somebody that I love is in pain or struggling or grieving or about to fall off a proverbial cliff, you're saying I should leave them alone because that's the gift. Yeah, please say more about that.
Speaker 1:That is definitely a gift, because that person is about to learn how to fall off the cliff. That person is about to learn how to fall on their face and stand up again. That person is about to traverse a portal and what I perceive as helping air quotes them or saving air quotes them is actually harmful. The only way that in that time it's helpful is if they ask me for help and I have to be sure that I'm not taking the job on, because anytime that I take the job on for another person, I know that we are just kicking their can down the road. That lesson is coming up for them for a reason. So I'm going to use something. Really.
Speaker 1:Let's say somebody can't pay their rent. They come to me, they can't pay their rent, and we're in October. They can't pay their rent. We're in November. They can't pay their rent. We're in December. They can't pay their rent.
Speaker 1:So at what point does this person learn to pay their rent? If I'm constantly paying their rent, right it's why would they have to learn? But if October comes, and let's say if I was and this is all monetary right, so if I pay someone's rent, I'm in a financial position that it would definitely set me back right. I don't have so much of it to give, so I would be abandoning some of myself and some of my own safety and security in order to help somebody else. That in itself doesn't feel right. In order to help somebody else? That in itself doesn't feel right. But if this person can learn how to pay their rent, well, we are now going into November to better humans. I still have my safety and security, and they are feeling even more safe and more secure in their ability to pay for their own bills. Right, just as an example? Yes, does that make it clear, or should?
Speaker 2:I give a different metaphor. No, I think that's really clear, but if you have a different one, give that one too, because I think that this is a really hard one for people. So, yeah, go for it. I'm thinking of on the street.
Speaker 1:I want to think about tithing, or I want to think about, like giving to homeless people that are potentially high and drinking or using heroin or something like that.
Speaker 1:And some people are the school of thought of like, oh, I give them because God is in all places and I give the tithe because I don't know, you know, maybe that was God. There's this whole like maybe that was God. God put this person in front of me and there's a very I hear this a lot in like religious circles. And then there are people that are like, no, I'm not giving them anything because they're just going to go get high and you know, et cetera. And what if the dose I gave them killed them? And either way, it doesn't feel good to me. For me, the bottom line is do I have to give it or not? And that's how I vote. If I have to give it, I'll give it, and if I give it to the homeless heroin backslash alcoholic once I give it, like it's out of my hands what that person does or doesn't do is not of my business, none of my business, because my only job was to decide if I was giving or not giving. I don't have to worry about whether it's their last dose, if they OD'd or didn't OD, and I don't have to worry about whether or not God was there, and purgatory for me is around the corner.
Speaker 1:It's really looking at just what am I responsible for and what's on my side of the street, and I can say that I'm a huge recoverer in this. And there is a place where, when we rescue people, we take them, we save them from the train wreck that we really don't see them as capable, and where I'm jumping in and I'm like no, no, no, here, take this, let me pay your rent, because I'm like well, this X, y or Z is never going to be able to pay their rent, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I potentially have like a thought process around that. That's none of my business. I can either help or not help.
Speaker 1:But the other thing it does is that it makes us feel amazing because we can just be the person that goes in and swoop here it is, fixes, all the things. We're amazing and now we have everybody's responsibility on our plates and it's really stressful. I mean, let's be honest, right now, what I have in my own life, on my own plate, is enough, like I don't need to take on other people's things, and I am aware now that by taking it on, I am seeing them as uncapable, which is very unkind, and I would say here the thing that's coming to mind right now is like I always want to teach a man to fish, versus give him a fish.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's beautiful, and I love what you're saying here, that if we are saving people from the experience that they're having that they created, that we're seeing them as incapable and how unkind that is. It kind of breaks my heart, right. And we people do this all the time. People are generally walking around saving each other all the time, and you're also saying that we get to feel amazing about it. We get to feel really amazing about ourselves that we helped somebody, and we're not saying don't help people.
Speaker 2:Maybe there's times that you help people, right, we're not suggesting that, but you're talking about something way deeper than just helping someone. You're talking about, like, saving someone from the problem that they created, as opposed to being there for them and maybe witnessing them or guiding them through it in some way. And what also comes up for me around this is this is a great way to avoid our own life. Our own life she's rolling her eyes. This is a great way for us to avoid our own life by helping others. And when you talk about abandoning yourself to help others, it's kind of a silent one that we don't necessarily see, because we're taking all of our attention and potential resources and giving it to somebody else. So what would you say? How do you help someone? You gave a few examples before you said asking them do you want a reflection? Do you want to be heard or seen? Can you say more about that? Because if you're not going to give someone the money for their rent, what can you do?
Speaker 1:Oh, I love that question, yeah, okay. So let's say then, my questions would be is this a place you can really afford? Are you living somewhere where you really can't afford it? Do we have to make other changes? Do you have to make other changes? I use the word we here, but it's really this person. Does this person need to change the way that they're living? Does something have to change? Does this person potentially need a different income stream, a different job? Does this person where is this person spending their money? Are they over budgeted? Did something happen? Has there been a catastrophe Like it would be?
Speaker 1:Oh, I understand that you're in this predicament. Did you want me to help you figure out how you got here? Do you foresee yourself being able to get out? Like, how can I actually help you? Right, because this is a bigger problem than just this month if we're not looking at all these other pieces and parts right. The thing that I had thought about right now is when you're helping children with their homework and they're like just give me the answer. And it's like well, no, it's your homework. Like you need to be able to pass the test right? So often we want to help people and we want to point them to the answer, sometimes even give them the answer if it's helpful.
Speaker 1:The question I'm always asking myself is am I really helping? And listen, don't get me wrong, I'm not a Mother Teresa type. So there are plenty of people that are in my circle that if they ask me for things, I potentially would potentially abandon myself and drop some things along the way. I'm not saying I'm perfect, but I'm not in delusion about it. I'm aware, oh, I'm about to do this and I'm totally abandoning myself here because of X, y or Z. I'm not like, oh, I'm doing this because I mean, who else is going to do it?
Speaker 1:I hear that a lot. Right, like, well, if I don't help, who's going to help them? Or I had to do it because of blah, blah, blah blah. And I'm like, no, no, no, I know I don't have to do this. I'm choosing to do this and in doing so, I recognize that I'm seeing this person as incapable. In doing this, I recognize that I'm taking away their learning lesson. In doing this, I am just contributing to pushing the can or kicking the can down the road. I am fully aware, and sometimes I still do it, but it's very different to be in that energy than the energy that I used to live by, and I do it a lot less. I mean it's a lot less often.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thank you for your honesty about that, because we're not perfect. Over here we're discussing this and chewing on it and this is a practice. It's like a deep commitment to yourself, right To take care of yourself and be present for other people that you love, without saving them from their own problems, because then we're not really helping them. So I really appreciate your honesty and same over here. This is something that I work on all the time, especially being a mother not so much an issue now, but you know, when my kids were growing up, you know, with the homework or projects, like it's just a really big thing. Mother is wanting to save their children so they don't have to have it hard, they don't have to hurt.
Speaker 2:Well, hurting or falling or failing is really how we grow. So for our listeners, it's okay, you know. It's okay If you are doing this. It's okay If you paid somebody's rent, it's okay If you did your kid's homework. But it's a good question to ask yourself why, right and what? What don't you want to be with by doing this action? What are you avoiding in yourself? What don't you want to feel or experience? That you're kind of controlling it? Would you say that this is control by?
Speaker 1:fixing someone's problems. We fix someone's problems. We don't want to see them in discomfort. We don't want to experience what it feels like to see them in discomfort. We also jump in to keep someone from behaving in a particular way. It is controlling, and we do that because we don't like when they do something so like an al-anonic who is trying to hide all the alcohol from the alcoholic. It's because, well, you don't like when the alcoholic is drinking, right, I don't want to go too far down that one. That was the example that came in my head. But I'll think of something else.
Speaker 1:Let's say a wife who doesn't like the way her husband responded to her and now she's so annoyed that he's well, insert, he's so, insert word, whatever word you want to use. He's such a whatever, pick your own word and is now pissed off that he's this way and that's a choice. I mean, we get to be angry in the beginning, but if generally he's that way, he's just that way and so it's, if it's kind of predictable, then why are we getting twisted about stuff like that? Why are we trying to keep people from behaving like oh, now I have a good idea, a good example You're with your partner and I'm just using men. I'm so sorry, sorry, men, but these are the examples that are coming to my head. You're with your partner in the car and he experiences road rage and it's like, oh my goodness, is he really trying to kill the car in front of us again? Why is he doing this? And it's like, well, clearly he has unexpressed rage, like that's what's happening. Do I tell him hey, honey, you know what Is this really about the car in the front? Really, what I think is happening is that you have unexpressed rage, babe. And so what I think we should do is we should go home and figure or like, whatever I come up with a solution. No, no, no, that is not my lane. Like, if he pulls out a gun, then maybe that becomes my lane, but short of some kind of murder, it's not really my lane. We're all kind of safe and I just am uncomfortable because this person is experiencing rage. And now I'm in their vicinity and I'm like, oh my God, this is so uncomfortable, I want this to stop. That's not the point of stopping that right, like the point to stop that would have been when we were in the dating phase, when I first saw his rage, when I first witnessed it. That would have been the time to exit or to address it, not you know X amount of years later in the car, as he's having a rage moment on the street. That's an example that's coming to mind for me where we are wanting to change the circumstances because I can't just be with where he's at.
Speaker 1:I have a sibling who drives kind of loony sometimes and he just thinks it's fun. So one time he's like driving and there's a snowstorm and the car swerving and it's doing a 360, et cetera. And he looks at me. He's like you're really not scared. And I'm like well, the worst thing that could happen is that we die. And he just giggled. I was like I am not going to get myself revved up, like this is you're having a good time. Okay, like it's not my cup of tea, but there was nothing to do there, I just was. And then all of a sudden he started driving like a normal human, like he really wanted to see me scared for whatever reason. His kick, right.
Speaker 1:I'm using this as an example. Is that a good example of like where I'm not? But let's say oh. Let's say I have a wound. Let's say I've been in accidents before, right, let's say I've had tons and tons of car accidents. Like what are the chances that I can hold myself and regulate myself as this is happening? He's driving like a lunatic, probably a slim to zero, right. But I trust him. I'm like I don't think he wants to like kill me and himself. Like I think he's just having a good time over here. Whatever, I trust that we're gonna be okay this is great.
Speaker 2:so you're saying that if we have a wound there ourselves, that it's going to be harder to be present with somebody else and to stay steady and have a grounded nervous system?
Speaker 2:Where, if we don't have a wound, it's going to be like fine, okay, great, drive like a maniac. Because most people listening I think most people listening. I would love to hear, please, let us know. If somebody's driving like a maniac, most people do tense up, most people become backseat drivers, most people are telling the driver how to drive. So what would you say to those people? This is a great example because I think everyone can relate.
Speaker 1:I would say, hopefully that's not the person that drives all the time, like, hopefully you're, you don't have to have that kind of vigilance up all the time. This is something that happened, but it's not always or all the time, and the fact that it wasn't that much fun for my brother that one time it hasn't really happened Right, cause I'm not like fun to make fun of or I'm not fun to freak out in that way Cause it wasn't joyful for him. And so my question would be like how can you have safety in that environment? Like what is needed and whatever is needed, try to gain it after the fact, because you're not going to be able to talk to or be a backstreet driver in that moment, like you're probably going to clench the door handle right or maybe the bottom of the seat, because you're activated, like your nervous system is activated and you're wanting to say something, do something, jump in, change the circumstances, and the person who's behaving erratically is also activated, and so activated and activated usually not the best combination.
Speaker 1:So you want to get to the place where you're regulated and you get to say when I see you, when you drive like that, when I'm in the car, I get scared. And then the person is going to say, well, I can't believe, you, don't trust that I'm a good driver or that you think I'm going to hurt you or whatever the things are for this person, and you get to say I get it. It may not be rational, you may feel like you completely have it. I just want you to know that, as a passenger, it doesn't feel good to me. So you get to state where you are I love that. It's going to be really hard to love them where they are when you currently feel like they're trying to kill you.
Speaker 2:Right hard to love them where they are, when you currently feel like they're trying to kill you, right? Well, I think there's this special sauce that you're saying in here is the approval you know you're saying well, the worst that happens is that we both die in a car accident. That is the worst, yeah, I mean.
Speaker 1:And that's pretty bad. Most people would not be in approval of that. Well, I mean, I guess the worst thing that could happen is that you know I'm paralyzed. I guess that would be worse. Let them alive and paralyzed. That would really suck a lot. But I still don't have any control over it. No, like, not really. I may think that's the thing. The mind thinks you have control over it, but if this person has lost it or they're teasing you, they're just effing around to find out. Right, yeah, how much control do I really have over this whole other human being, other than telling them it wasn't okay? I got really scared.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it wasn't okay. I got really scared. Yeah, I think there's a neutrality in your voice when you're talking about this that most people sitting in the passenger seat probably don't have. Mostly people in the passenger seat become or agitated, they're judgmental, they are blamey, right, and you get really pretty nasty being a backseat driver. And if you're scared, there's a reason you're being scared and your, you know your emotions are coming out in that way. But what I'm hearing you saying, which is the special sauce, is this neutrality and also a deep sense of personal responsibility. You're not telling him to stop driving like a crazy maniac. You're saying I feel really scared when you drive this way and that's very different, yeah, and I think that's the special sauce of what you're saying.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm not letting him know that I think he's a lunatic or that there's something very wrong in the brain. Well, it's not letting him know that I think he's a lunatic or that there's something very wrong in the brain. Well, it's not helpful. No, it's not.
Speaker 2:It would just activate him.
Speaker 1:Right, it turns into name calling versus how can I live and let live, which is really what we're talking about, right, exactly. How can I live and let live? Okay, I want to live and I want to be less activated. I want my nervous system to be relaxed to a certain extent and I'm only going to have so much access to the places in which I can control that, and I enjoy living my life, so I'm not going to be sheltered in a bubble, so I'm going to take a certain amount of risk. Right, like when I'm going to take a certain amount of risk right, like when I'm walking down the street I can get hit by somebody I don't even know who made the wrong turn and I never got a chance to talk to that person.
Speaker 2:Maybe somebody was in the passenger seat of that car saying slow down, buddy passenger seat of that car saying slow down, buddy, maybe Right?
Speaker 1:My point is we can become so fixated on all the pieces that we think we can control, but the truth is we really can't control it. Now, if I would have said that to my brother and then every time we got into the car together he behaved that way, then my responsibility would be to not get into the car with my brother anymore and just be like I love that you're willing to drive, but whenever you drive, I really have a lot of agita, like I can't take it and I'm not asking you to drive differently, like I will find a different way to get there. Right, that's my responsibility and I'm not requesting for this person to change in any way, shape or form. They get to walk through their life and live their life how they want to live it, and I get to walk through my life and live my life the way I want to live it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's really genius. So if you don't like what's happening, then you can try to communicate it, yeah Right. And then you also get to have a boundary. You get to decide for yourself what you want to engage in and what you don't. And I think this is a really hard piece for people as well To know that you actually have a choice. You could decide I don't want to get in the car with this person or I don't want to. You know, this could be anything. It could be. I don't want to spend the day with this person because I think I don't want to get in the car of this person.
Speaker 1:I think this happens a lot with people that drink, people that drink and drive and the people that are getting in the car with them. I have seen this a lot. I'm like I don't need to get into the car with somebody that was drinking. I can drive I'm sober for the most part, um, or I can just grab an Uber. I don't need to be part of that in any way, shape or form, and I don't need to shame the person either, like I'm not doing this because you blah, blah, blah, blah. Like none of that is necessary. None of that is my business. What's my business is my safety. What's my business is my decisions. That's my business, mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:What's my business is my decisions. That's my business.
Speaker 2:There's such a deep level of personal responsibility in what you're saying. So how do you get there? How does somebody get there? How do they go from wanting to pay someone's rent, control how they drive, you know, not want someone to be bitchy or complainy or picking on them. You know we're talking about maybe these are people that you love. How do you go from that to taking personal responsibility and not saving someone and letting them, allowing them, allowing the natural course of life to happen, where they learn and you get to have boundaries? How do you get there?
Speaker 1:One decision at a time, I think One interaction at a time, and then being with yourself after, like doing some form of the word that's coming up is recon. But that's not it. It's, uh, a review like a review. Okay, I was with such and such. That's a challenging relationship or that's a challenging friendship. What happened? Did I? Did I in any way shape or form overshare? Did I provide advice without consent? Okay, I provided advice without consent, without even asking. All right, that's not mine to do. Next time I will ask for consent, Okay. Next thing oh, my goodness, I just gave this person money for their rent. I told myself I wasn't going to do that. Okay, Note to self.
Speaker 1:The next time I see this person, potentially they're going to ask me for money for their rent. What am I willing to do? I say no to paying their rent. I'm going to be strong. Okay, no, Is that really true? Well, no, probably I'm going to want to give them money. All right, but am I going to lend it or am I going to give it? How much do I have to give? Okay, Maybe the next time I see them, when they ask me for rent, I'm going to say I don't have money for rent. But here's a hundred dollars. Maybe I have a hundred dollars. Do I have a hundred dollars? Maybe I have $50. Okay, great.
Speaker 1:And after every interaction, doing a review and asking myself where did I overgive? Where did I overshare? Where did I overgive? Where did I overshare? Where did I give unsolicited advice? Where did I overreact and make someone's behavior bad? How can I become okay with their behavior? I have a different family member who really dislikes when people are drinking and this person gets really, really upset by it. But this person has their own trauma around it, right, so it's a trigger. I don't have that much around it. So whenever I'm around people that are drinking, it's just people are drinking. So the reason why I'm giving that as an example, it's if I feel really activated by something when I'm in review. My question is why was I so activated by this? How can I become more value neutral? Because ultimately, I want more peace in my life and I'm not looking to cut every single person out of my life.
Speaker 1:Oh, this one asked me for rent, so I'm not talking to them anymore. Oh, this person drives crazy not talking to them anymore. Oh, this person's always drunk. Not talking to them anymore. Oh, this person always needs advice, not talking to them anymore. And then the next thing, you know, I got nobody to talk to. I'm in an island all by myself, right? It's not that. It's like how can I just let people be where they are? Does that help with? How do we get there?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's really gorgeous and I think it's really not about cutting people out of your life. It's about what do you need, or what do you need to communicate in order to be with this person, and if that's what boundaries are, that's literally what boundaries are. What do you need so you can be in this situation? And it does require a lot of honesty with yourself, which you're pointing to, a lot of willingness to try stuff out. Like you said, one decision at a time is a really beautiful way and noticing your behavior, taking some inventory at the end of the day, not only what adjustments do I need for next time, aka what did I not say or do that I wish that I had right. We can always do that. That's a big practice of mine when did I overlook myself? But also what did I do that went really well, what did I do that I liked? That is repeatable, that I could do that again, because you know that's really important too, to find the things that we did well, because we're building skills here. What did I do well and how can I do this again?
Speaker 2:I think this is really beautiful and I love what you're saying about overgiving. It's just, I think, a real pain body, in our culture and in families, and with women especially, definitely with men as well. But we're constantly overgiving our resources. But we're constantly overgiving our resources, whether it's our time or energy, or our money, or, like you said, we're overreacting and it is painful, it takes away from ourselves, it takes away from our pocketbook, it takes away from our energy. This is where desire comes in, I think. The desire, maybe, to have healthier relationships, that desire to have more of what you want in your life, the desire to spend a day with your brother and not get mad at him, whatever, whatever that it is. Um well, what do you need in order to have that desire and how can you follow the breadcrumbs in order to get there?
Speaker 1:out there. Something just came to mind, something else that I definitely did back then and I have to say that sometimes when you're thinking in hindsight, you don't remember all the pieces and parts. I enrolled people so we are not our behavior and I started to enroll people in the. I started enrolling people in the correction of the pattern that I was in so for my friends, that I wanted to constantly give them advice and tell them how to do something. I would ask for consent and of course, I had consent. They wanted me to do it, so I then I realized, oh, this consent thing isn't working here, because I'm looking for a different pattern. I'm looking for them to be able to stand on their own.
Speaker 1:So I started to enroll and say, hey, we're in this pattern where you will tell me a problem and then I'll ask you if you consent to me giving you advice or telling you what I see. Then I'll ask you if you consent to me giving you advice or telling you what I see, and then you say yes, and then I tell you I think we can do better. I want to have you tell me whatever you need to say and I want to only listen and say thank you for your honesty. I do not want to offer anything, because I really think that it's time for you to get really strong in this area and I believe you can. And I keep taking away.
Speaker 1:I feel emotional about this by helping you. Every time I help you, I'm taking away your opportunity to get better at this and I want to stop stealing that from you, and I really need your help, like deep down. I truly believe that you are capable, but there is a place inside of me that just is so heartbroken. When I see you there, all I want to do is jump in and swim for you. I need your help so you can swim in the waters. So I enrolled others. That was something that I did and for different people. It was different patterns and I thankfully got tons of yeses of people that were willing to work on this with me, and I was able to really change many, many relationships and many friendships in this way.
Speaker 2:I think you just blew the lid off of what's possible in a relationship that you can go to somebody that you love and share. Something like that. That is an enormous amount of emotional sobriety. First of all, in order to get there, you have to have noticed yourself do this so many times, and that is a painful part of the process is when you see the pattern but you haven't quite changed it yet, and so you see yourself going around the hamster wheel again and again. I think that's the most painful part of the growth process, and it's also a necessary part, and what you're saying is you don't have to do it alone. You can say to someone hey, this is something I'm working on here is why and I'd like your help it's really beautiful. Thank you for that, catherine, and I feel like we're at a peak, and I just want to know if there is anything else that you want to share here for our listeners on this topic. I really feel your heart here.
Speaker 1:I just want to say you know, I understand that where I was where I really thought that rescuing others right was the way that I used to feel like a superstar and I felt so smart and just genius-like. I can't tell you how amazing it feels now that I know people know that are in my circle, that I love them wherever they are. That is such a beautiful thing. They know I'm not trying to change them in any way, shape or form. I may not like their behaviors, but that's okay, I know they're not their behaviors and we just are. And that sensation of seeing people as capable and loving them where they are and seeing that as just the right medicine is so much better than jumping in the water and swimming for them. I didn't think it would be, but it's. There's a place inside of me where I could really feel a generosity and the love expansion of like, yeah, I understand you're cranky, I love you anyway. Yes, I understand you're sad, I love you anyway. Yes, I understand you're bitchy, I love you anyway. Like, no matter what you're in, I'm value neutral about it. Like I love you anyway.
Speaker 1:And there will be times where I get twisted because I get activated, because I'm human, but this way of being and walking through the world has definitely provided me so much more peace than the consistent urgency and chaos and anxiety that I used to feel in the past, because it was like everybody's problem was urgent, right, everybody's whatever was the number one thing. Everybody was a brain surgeon and everybody needed the scalpel. Now, that sort of thing, that's what I want to share. Being able to just love people where they are and trust that their soul has got them, that God has got them, that they are a spark of God, that you will help in whatever way you can without abandoning yourself, and you can see them as fully capable, is the gift of the highest order, because it's not readily accessible, and my wish is that everybody listening can practice that. And that's it for now. Thank you so much for joining us.
Speaker 2:Thank you for joining us on the Desire is Medicine podcast.
Speaker 1:Desire invites us to be honest, loving and deeply intimate with ourselves and others. You can find our handles in the show notes. We'd love to hear from you.
