Desire As Medicine Podcast
Catherine & Brenda interview people and talk to each other about desire. They always come back to us being 100% responsible for our desires.
Contact us by email:
desireasmedicine@gmail.com
catherine@catherinenavarro.com
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Desire As Medicine Podcast
73 ~ F*ck Your Fears with Shane Kulman
Unleash your power within by embracing your desires as we welcome Shane Kulman, a celebration expert and champion of creative self-expression. Shane shares her audacious philosophy of "F*ck Your Fears," encouraging everyone to overcome personal limitations for creative expansion.
Shane's dynamic approach to life, underscored by her "10 Commandments," helps sensitive and creative individuals harness their full potential through curiosity, authenticity, and joy.
This episode explores the transformative connection between desire and fear, as Shane shares her personal journey of working with her own fears, and how they intersect with play, curiosity and self expression.
Episode Highlights:
• Embracing the concept of “F*ck Your Fears”
• Shane's journey from traditional education to advocacy for creative expression
• Importance of community in overcoming fear
• Connection between fear and desire
• The role of play and curiosity in facing fears
• Engaging with fear creatively
• Transforming fears into opportunities for growth
• The healing power of being seen and heard
• Encouragement to explore unique self-expression and authenticity
• Easy to implement practices to play with your own fears
Follow Shane: Website, Instagram and Facebook
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If you'd like to learn more about 1:1 or group coaching with Brenda or Catherine message them and book a Sales Call to learn more.
Email:
desireasmedicine@gmail.com
goddessbrenda24@gmail.com
catherine@catherinenavarro.com
Instagram:
@desireasmedicinepodcast
@Brenda_Fredericks
@CoachCatherineN
Welcome to Desire is Medicine. We are two very different women living a life led by desire.
Brenda :Inviting you into our world. I'm Brenda. I'm a devoted practitioner to being my fully expressed true self in my daily life, motherhood relationships and my business Desire has taken me on quite a ride and every day I practice listening to and following the voice within. I'm a middle school teacher turned coach and guide of the feminine.
Catherine:And I'm Catherine, devoted to living my life as the truest and hopefully the highest version of me. I don't have children, I've never been married. I've spent equal parts of my life in corporate as in some down and low shady spaces. I was the epitome of tired and wired and my path led me to explore desire. I'm a coach, guide, energy worker and a forever student, even after decades of inner work.
Brenda :We are humble beginners on the mat, still exploring, always curious. We believe that listening to and following the nudge of desire is a deep spiritual practice that helps us grow.
Catherine:On the Desire as Medicine podcast. We talk to each other, we interview people we know and love about the practice of desire, bringing in a very important piece that is often overlooked being responsible for our desire.
Brenda :Welcome listeners and friends to the Desire as Medicine podcast. I am joined today by my amazing co-host, catherine, and we have a very special guest today who I cannot wait to introduce to you. Her name is Shane Kulman. She is a dear friend of mine and here's her bio. It's so amazing.
Brenda :Shane Kulman is a celebration expert and an advocate for creative self-expression. Her first soiree was a preschool teacher and then a therapist, which revived her deep passion for play and where she developed the use of unconventional methods to grow. Shane guides sensitive, creative individuals to break free from limitations and embrace their full potential. She helps people fuck their fears and find their fierce freedom. Fears and find their fierce freedom. Through Shane's signature programs and offerings. She uses her 10 commandments to fuck personal fears that get in the way of creative expansion. She combines the principles of curiosity, authenticity and joy to help clients create the lives that they love.
Brenda :Focused on her own growth and leadership, and the co-creator of PARN, which is a dynamic approach to play, attention revealing and noticing Parn, she sees connection and fun as the most holy. She sees connection and fun as the most holy. She's a best-selling author, a playwright, a teacher of improv and an advice columnist in the Rockaway Times. Shane has an insatiable thirst for connection and fun and desires that all people see their self-expression as the magic carpet ride for the fullest life expression. I just absolutely love this bio. I've known Shane for at least a decade and she is one of the most authentic, loving, courageous women I know. Being her field is truly a joy because she holds such a strong pull for play and honesty and self-expression. So welcome Shane.
Shane Kulman:Thank you so much for having me.
Brenda :It is so our pleasure. I can't help it. Every time I say, fuck your fears. I just want to laugh.
Shane Kulman:Yeah, I'm so glad I love you know. I love knowing the impact of even just the title. That might be enough.
Brenda :It might just be enough. Fuck your fears. It certainly leaves you with a curiosity, right? What does that mean? Fuck your fears. You can do that. So this just leads me to my first question, which is probably so obvious why fuck your fears? Can you tell us about that, please?
Shane Kulman:Yeah. So I as a child, as an adult, really trust myself and I was teaching a course I don't remember the name and during the middle of the course I said fuck your fears. And all I needed was the energy that I said behind it and I was like I'm changing the name, that's what we're doing. And I started like another course based on that and it was like a six week thing that I just declared in the moment and it ran and it got bigger than me and at the time I was still in a uncomfortable position of being in the education world and then I was teaching women and goddess work and it was huge for me to be an educator with a master's degree in behavior and special education.
Shane Kulman:To now declare I'm a witch and fuck your fears is what I'm leading with, so that in itself was me fucking my fears, was using curse words as an educator where I had really put myself on the podium of being a thought leader in the world of autism, in the world of special education, and I was like I don't want to do that anymore. It's too much of a system, I can't break into it, I'm miserable and they want me to be ugly, Like there was so much unapproval and disapproval of how I was operating that I was like nope, I am a witch who teaches fuck your fears. And that felt so much better and courageous.
Brenda :So courageous. As someone who's been in the school system for 22 years and we've talked about this I really get it Coming out as something different in the education world or any kind of corporate work right where you're really in the system is scary, yeah, and you did that in a really courageous way. Can you talk more about the fucking of your own fears? You mentioned that when you said that you were in the world of education and you're coming out using curse words, fucking fears, coming out as a witch. How did you become the person that could hold people through fucking your fears? How did you fuck your own fears?
Shane Kulman:Oh, I love that question, so I have a lot of fears. People tend to think like, oh, shane, and this is the feedback I got was I can't even come to your show, like you just don't have any fears. It's weird for me and I'm like I have the most fears and the teacher and the school of thought that I learned was through my improv acting teacher and that improv acting work was based on saying no and that alone brings up rejection and being left out and not getting what I want, which is truly what desire is based on, what fun is based on. It's like getting yeses. And so I would go to this class, and the first two times I went to the class, I just knew how to put on a show. I knew how to be pretty, I knew how to be funny. I did not know how to express my inner life. I was just numb and living in fear, basically until I was 32 years old in terms of self-expression, I just wanted to look the same, fit in, feel cool and be happy. I guess that was all I knew. And then this teacher gave me feedback the first day, and her name is Erin Flowers, like her real name, and she gave me feedback on a scene and she said that's good, kind of like sex in the city, like it's entertaining. But we're here to feel and I was like wait, is this woman not telling me I'm great, like I don't, I'm like malfunction, malfunction. And and I left that class with energy. So I was living in Bay Ridge, brooklyn, and I had to drive to the Upper West Side for 7 PM, which if you're a New Yorker it's horrible. It could take three hours. But I did it and I went and I left feeling energized, hopeful, creative, interested, and I was like that's interesting. Now I'm a behaviorist, so I noticed everything. I went back again in a bad mood traffic running out of gas, having to the trifecta, use the bathroom, all the things. And then I left again with hope, energy, positivity and I was like okay, there's some science here.
Shane Kulman:And at the time I was working with children with autism, three and four years old. I was working with their parents and there was lack of hope, lack of energy, lack of excitement from the parents, lack of hope, lack of energy, lack of excitement from the parents. And here I was working with kids and in a system that didn't work and I was using the similar techniques we learned in my acting class with the kids. I was doing what I what is called sound and movement, but it was really mirror neuroning each other, that's how I say it. And they got interested.
Shane Kulman:And the first time I realized it was working, this little kid came to me and every day we're working together. The family came from Egypt for services. So now I show up and they're like okay, fix my kid, I don't know what we're in America, we're here for the best services. And he said to me I didn't know what he was doing and I was curious. He had been asking me for lavender. In his nonverbal way, that was the sound my lavender bottle made.
Shane Kulman:So I went to class that night and I was him. I acted him out and it was profound. It was the most fun, the most interesting, the most curious um person to embody, because he didn't have words, he didn't speak, but he was really curious about the dust flying in the air, about sounds, about smells. And so for me to have that playground, to explore that in a non-logical, non-smart way, but just being embodied taught me that guess what this kid might save the world and the planet. And I got to experience what it's like to be other people, to be real in an imaginary set of circumstances.
Shane Kulman:And that's where my world completely changed and I stopped going on dates. I stopped drinking, I stopped all recreational drugs, I stopped dates, I stopped socializing. I just went to class class every Wednesday at 7 pm for four years and then for 10 years on a whole. But after four years I started socializing again. I just needed all my money, my time, my energy to go to that place because I was most my soul was getting attention.
Shane Kulman:Now I'm not the kind. I'm not a committed person. I don't go to the gym certain a committed person. I don't go to the gym certain days a week. I don't meditate every day, like I've never applied myself, to use my teacher's words in that way. I mean, I was brought up being told I'm not applying myself, that there's something wrong with me, I'm lazy, whatever.
Shane Kulman:And this is where I got to shine. I got to play within a structure and the structure is something that I teach and still use as my unconventional methods, and I've used it when I taught kids in prison and I've used it with millionaire parents and I've used it with everyday people and I use it myself every day in my relationships and my friendships and with myself. So this improv acting class, which was taught by Aaron Flowers and Carl Stilitano, was created with real like Stella Adler acting techniques, but also the dismissal of 12-step programs which were based on telling a story, and so the teacher of my teachers basically created this dynamic of people learn when they're told no Like. That's when you get to feel, and feeling is where it's at, because our fears are really beautiful fairy tales that we believe, fairy tales that we believe Our fears are fairy tales.
Brenda :Can you say more about that?
Shane Kulman:Yes, and you'll hear it from me the whole time is that our creativity is. You know, theater. It's creativity. So if we bring our deepest fear, let's say death, right, death of loved ones, death of ourselves, that's where my fears always tend to go back to. It is right now.
Shane Kulman:Our world creates stories about what happens after death. Nobody actually knows. There are people who've crossed over to be you know for a moment or two, and they have a story about the light. But is it inarguably true? No, did it happen to them? Yes, it is a story. You know any religion, anything that talks about.
Shane Kulman:So going along those lines, it's interesting.
Shane Kulman:It's a place to get curious, and everybody, including myself, wants to create a story that's comforting, so that we feel that our loved ones are doing well after they've left this earth, and so I can see so many things as death right, like working with an autistic, a child with autism, and their parents.
Shane Kulman:It's the death of what they wanted as a child. There's some death there, and so the idea that the fairy tales whether it's religion or a Grimm's fairy tale or a fairy tale that we make up all the time it's interesting, it's creative, it makes us feel at peace and we can buy into it or we can be entertained, and that makes it lighter, like wouldn't it be nice if what I thought after death is true, wouldn't it be nice if I can go to bed feeling peace about so-and-so being sick, Wouldn't it be nice? And then it can actually be a play, it could be a song, it could be a poem. Maybe it's shared, maybe it's not shared, but creativity is definitely the magic carpet to put us at ease and to give us a place to feel safe, to put the fear in something. So it's not just like I'm afraid of that. People stay in fears for their whole lives.
Brenda :Thank you, that's so absolutely beautiful. I love how you're talking about fears and curiosity and play. I could just feel the sense of play in just the way you're talking about all of this and that is really unconventional and we don't think about being playful and curious and using our imagination. With fears we usually just kind of cringe and close and want to hide in our beds or stay home or not follow our biggest desires when we have a fear. But you're saying take the no and go with it, follow the energy of that, because the no has so much sensation in it. And what if you went into that even more? Is that what you're saying?
Shane Kulman:Oh, you're such a great listener, it's so important to go deep into the no so that you could find more joy. That is the place where nobody wants to go. And if you said, shane, you're going to be talking about death on a podcast, even maybe three months ago, maybe six months, I would be like I'm definitely not doing that because it's going to bring it in. Like there was something taught to me that if you say it out loud, it's going to manifest. But just like improv, if you give it a container, if you give it a space to live, it will have its own little party and then dissipate, versus the thought of it every day, all the time, as this like lingering fruit fly that won't go away. It's, it's really a terrible way to live. So it's like, okay, we're going to talk about fear today, so I'm ready for that, there's a container for it and I can talk about death. It is not going to bring it.
Shane Kulman:And just to give an example of that, when I was 30, my dad had stomach cancer and I was really nervous about it. I mean, I was nervous since three years old. He's a heavy smoker. At three years old I was like hiding his cigarettes. So one day I wasn't feeling well and my neighbor, who's a brilliant French artist, photographer, he's like let's do a scene. So we did a scene that he was my dad on his deathbed and he just died and I played me.
Shane Kulman:Now I don't know, any other day I would have said no. My acting teacher knew all my triggers. She knew they would come up. She would never suggest it or she would try and I would shut it down. But for some reason I wasn't feeling well, my defenses were down and I trust him. I kid you not. My dad has been healthy since that day. Like going into the dark of the darkness. It just proved to me, like you can say the fear, you can even embody it and pretend it, and then guess what, when you're out of it, it's like that shit's not even real. Like then you get to celebrate and so that pendulum that swings both ways of the darkest of the dark and the lightest of the light, is real. So you cannot have your big desires, your big joy, if you're not willing to look at the stuff that is painful, uncomfortable and filled with fear.
Catherine:I am jumping in because I have a question. Yes, and I feel like Shane and Brenda are on the same page and Catherine over here is like hang on a second, hang on, hang on, hang on. Am I hearing this correctly? So am I hearing when you say we have to take the no? Are you saying that when fear comes up, you're almost looking at it like a no inside of us, like, oh, I want to cross the bridge, I'm afraid to cross the bridge. Nope, like almost as if something is that what we're doing? Are we swapping out fear with no?
Shane Kulman:I love that yes, and the quickest example I could see is friends who are my age-ish, like 40s, 50s who have secretly given up on love, like they've said no to some fairy tale, to that gives them expansive romantic love. And actually one of my clients said the other day he's like yeah, I just I don't. I don't know if I could deal with that kind of pain, and he hasn't even met anyone. But the idea that when you get a no, it's, or when you feel a yes, it's like putting the no on top of it because it's too much feeling, it's too much in that moment even to imagine.
Shane Kulman:Could I be the person who falls in love and has a prince charming of the, of the or the princess charming of what I want? No, and a lot of people make it very smart and I was one of those people and I was like no, maybe I'll have like five loves and maybe there's no such thing as one person who I could love. Like I make it very sensible but the truth is I'm afraid of getting hurt. And, ps, now I'm all in love and I hear myself being like yeah, I think one person can be totally great, but the idea of getting a no has so many like layers and is so in-depth of like what it feels like to get rejected or feel pain. It feels like death, living death.
Catherine:This is wild for me. I want to just let Brenda Shane and all the listeners know that I have never thought about my fear like a no, Like I know in my body what a hell yes feels like I get those often. Like hell, yes, I want to go on that roller coaster, I'm ready, you know. And I also have the fear voice where it's like, oh, do you want to go down that mountain on a snowboard, with no lessons and not being a skier? No, like I'm good, but I had not. And to me that seems like a sensible response for a woman that is in her 50s. Like, no, I don't want to go do an extreme sport when I've never done it before, Right. But I'm trying to think of other fears that I have and I'm like, have I felt them or even ever address them? Like a no that's coming up in my body and I have to say, Shane, up until this very moment, no, I had not.
Shane Kulman:So thank you so thank you, yeah, thank you for sharing that.
Catherine:I've never made that um analogy, that a fear is a no, but now it has legs. It's like, yay, you got to this moment. This is so wild because I I mean, like on a completely different conversation right, brenda and I, we talk about desire. We definitely talk about relationships all the time, and the biggest relationship that we talk about is the relationship with ourselves, and we talk about no being. You know boundary setting, and no is really powerful, and you don't really know your yes until you know your no. And so now I'm like hang on, if I don't know my yes, I'm getting hot. Hang on.
Catherine:If I don't know my yes until I know my no, and really my fears are a no, then it's almost like I'm looking at my life right now as if there's this window opening going so much more color if I can start dipping into the places that I have that have currently have cobwebs because I haven't wanted to touch it because of fear, or etc. Like visibility is one of my fears, like I don't really like that. I always feel like the internet is a place where it's you having conversation and all the thousands and thousands of people you don't know are on the other side. Like I'm still surprised when someone says to me oh yes, I listened to that episode, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like Brenda, can you believe that this person it's like six, seven people removed from me heard X, y or Z? It's wild to know that, while at the same time loving doing this so much, there's such a? It's so complex. Okay, I'm going to hand this over to Brenda because I'm having my own existential whatever over here transformational moment. I love it.
Brenda :Thank you for coming in with that, Catherine, and sharing that, Because when we were talking about that before Shane, it didn't land for me the way it landed for Catherine. I was like, oh, so you're saying fear is like a no. That felt very normal for me over here and now I'm hearing you never talked about that before in that particular way and that's really wild.
Shane Kulman:It's the brilliance of brilliance coming together. And it's also really important for listeners, because I know and I don't ever know where it is People are like, yay, shane, I love what you're teaching. And then they drop off and I'm like, ooh, I'm so curious about what happened. And if they can't articulate the way you just beautifully did, catherine, they just think something's wrong with them and they become a fan or they're secretly hiding from me, and I work with people on their visibility.
Shane Kulman:I have this video, vixen, that comes up twice a year and it's 18 days of live prompts because I love business and I love self-development, and they go hand in hand because we are, and so I have a conviction that everyone needs and I'll use needs with intention to be seen in their brilliance, whether they know their brilliance or not. Having worked with kids, everyone's inner child has that moment of look at me, look what I'm doing, look what I'm doing. Every single child, even the children who are, you know, neurodivergent and special needs, they, they need to be seen in their light, and so I don't, I don't want to take that away from anybody. So I'm glad, catherine, that you built that bridge for those people who are like wait, I'm glad she said it like that, because me and Brenda we're floating on this Like we get each other Yay, and once I'm in that place with someone it's great for me in that person, but everyone else sort of like gets sucked into the vacuum of I don't know what they're talking about, but they're happy.
Brenda :Beautifully said. It really goes back to what you said earlier, shane, about giving something space to breathe. And Catherine, you just demonstrated that so gorgeously and just for our listeners to know that Catherine has removed her sweatshirt. Now she's back in her t-shirt. Because talk about fear. Come on and say here's this thing that I've never heard before and it landed for me so differently than what you are talking about is an extremely brave thing to do. I mean, I feel fire in my body just talking about it. I feel tingling in my feet and you know, giving people, giving the thing, whatever it is, space to breathe Because, like you said, shane, when something comes up, that's a little different.
Brenda :Maybe it's a fear, maybe it's a no, maybe it's a different kind of thought. We tend to think that we're wrong because it's not the mainstream, but what I've learned is no, you're not wrong. It's your personal, unique expression that needs to be said. If you're thinking it, it's not wrong because everyone else isn't thinking it. It's something that came through you and please say it. And this is where we get all the unique expression and medicine in the world from women who are brave enough to shine Really. Yeah, I am personally loving this interaction. Thank you so much.
Shane Kulman:And I want to add to that it's like brave enough to shine and brave enough to show up and be like poop, you know, and brave enough to be like guess what? I'm a mess, I'm crying and I'm still a leader. And that's where my hope is that we're moving into the future of not Instagram ready leaders, you know, and we have a lot of that going on already and it feels challenging. The other day, I went live in my women's group with a puffy too much eating salt dinner the night before face and I was like, oh, this is one of those moments. Of course, I'm so trained in this, in the fear process, that I got happy right away, but I think a lot of people are staying in their fears for 20 years. I spoke to a woman the other night 20 years, Well, more than that, she's 86. And she was talking about how her parents treated her unfairly and I was like, wow, I just was listening. She's not my client, she's a family friend. And I was like this is a great example of fear. I couldn't even celebrate or coach her. I was just like I'm just listening, because she had answers for everything and I was like, wow, I am so grateful that I was so fearful that I didn't have a choice.
Shane Kulman:So, being seen being on a theater stage and sharing real life stuff that sucked as quote unquote improv, people after the show would be like, oh my God, I can't believe. Imagine that was real and I'm like it was. You know, I didn't say anything, but I don't have to own it, just for myself, just for my peers. And then it was compost left on the stage. So, Catherine, what you just shared, it's like real, it's witnessed, we saw it, it happened, you had a physical experience. And now it's going to be something else.
Shane Kulman:You know, and that's how fear works. It's not an isolated project. You can't go and read about it and do a writing in a book. You really have to do it with others and that's the importance of us coming together, Just to tie back in the brilliance. We have a certain brain mechanism or physical body mechanism that won't let us feel as much fear as we can when we're with others. We can't do it alone. It feels like we're never going to get out. I'm going to be in a psychosis. What if I have to call 911 and I really lose my shit. And it's okay to have that. It just means you need really good friends who are really smart. Yes, therapy is great, Having a therapist is great, but there's a power dynamic there and having peers that are equally as smart and know how to hold space is the best move that everybody needs. Otherwise, you might be the 86-year-old who is talking about her parents squashing her down. I mean, that's like 80, I can't even say it 80 years of fear, Still very much alive.
Catherine:I want to piggyback for all listeners something that Shane spoke about right now which is so, so important, so I want to make sure that I pin it for everyone's ears, which is information is one thing. So we can read a book, we can go to a class, we can take a course, we can become psychiatrists, psychologists, we can be in a practice for X amount of years, but nothing is like the medicine of being witnessed, and being witnessed by a professional, I want to say, also has a lot of strength in that. And it's an interesting prison. The informed client.
Catherine:It's like such golden handcuffs when we are just stewing in our own knowledge trying to figure out air quotes like why am I sabotaging myself Air quotes? Why do I feel this fear Air quotes? Why am I afraid of this? I shouldn't be afraid of this. Why am I afraid I'm just gonna use something silly? Why am I afraid of the dark? I'm afraid you know there's nothing in the dark. Why do I still believe in monsters? Or why am I afraid of the apocalypse or whatever that is?
Catherine:And if I'm just thinking about it and stewing on it in my own house, right or in my own, my own mind, and not sharing it with others and I'm not giving it any airtime.
Catherine:Or if I choose to give it airtime and with a professional, and then I'm talking to the professional and I'm like I know I keep doing this, why do I keep doing this? And all I'm looking for is an answer, as if having the answer would help. The why we have something doesn't help as much as what next, and the what next, I feel pops up and blooms so beautifully when you are in pairs or more of people. Brenda and I have this amazing opportunity on this podcast to feel all the different energies of the third between our guests and ourselves. And everybody can experience this when you're with your friends and you're with your colleagues and you're telling them and sharing with them something that's happening and nobody needs to give you advice and you don't have to have the perfect answer as to why you're afraid of something or the perfect analysis for something. Just giving it space and being patient with yourself and allowing things to move through is a perfect place to be to be.
Shane Kulman:Yeah, yes, I'm taking notes on what you're saying, that is so. And especially, I'll just mention, in the coaching world, oh my God, there's so many pain bodies, leading pain bodies in terms of I want to prove that I'm good. So let's do a lot of things. And you know, the somatic way and the way to really process is not a mind process. That's what college is for and all the things, the systems. But you can go through one thing and like, let, like, feel what that feels like, and heat is a really great teacher. It's like where is the heat in our body? I don't know enough about it. Somebody was talking about like thermogenics or whatever, but they use heat as a way to tell where there's rupture or where there's something wrong with the body. And so just allowing words to permeate our physicality is so powerful, and that means we need to give it space.
Shane Kulman:And I was learning what was it called? It was like a power dynamic. What's a humiliation circle? I was being led in a humiliation circle and it's like you come up with a sentence that feels humiliating and the other person delivers it and then you, as the person in the process, get to ask about give it to me again. So an example would be I did this with a client and she kept.
Shane Kulman:Her biggest fear was I'm a fat slut, like that was the line that brought like terror to her body. So the idea was, whenever she asked for it again, I would say it again. And it's like it's a way to like bring in trauma and then work with it. And she kept doing it fast, like say it again, say it again, say it again. And I was like okay, let's take a break. What's happening for you?
Shane Kulman:And that's the kind of space that fear does not want, because words dissipate feelings. And so when we're in the school of talking and talking and talking, we're not giving ourselves the space. And that's for the you know the facilitator or the friend to be like can we just slow down? Like even now I'm talking fast. I got excited Like what am I afraid? Or what am I not? Feeling is like I am amazing and I know amazing women and when we get together I'm going to feel so alive. What am I going to do with that energy after? And here's my fear you're not gonna use it right. You're gonna go and sit and scroll on your phone because you're a loser like that critical voice wants to win.
Shane Kulman:Don't get too high on yourself. Don't really think you're a brilliant genius, because you should have been somewhere by now. You should have been on NBC morning show. They don't even have. You know what I mean? Wow, that felt so good to say out loud. So it's like letting the expansion happen means what now?
Shane Kulman:Like like my guy today wrote on his Facebook wall that we're in love, he and I'm like oh my God, I cannot deal. I don't know what to do with that. Even now, my foot got tight. I'm like, so I had to take a minute and be like okay, shane, this man loves you so much. You put it on his Facebook thing and people are I'm sweating even saying it.
Shane Kulman:So just noticing that your body is an instrument and it gives you messages and we can deny it. We can be like oh, I just got to chill. Or oh, like a fear, like a, just a. We can be like, oh, I just got to chill. Or oh, like a fear, like a, just a, like a fruit fly. This is one of those moments.
Shane Kulman:A fear, I have it, what I call a fear whiplash. It's like it comes up and then you just smack it away. And the easiest one I can think of is somebody. You're hanging out and somebody says, oh, that should be a t-shirt. There's so many t-shirts already. Oh, I should be a coach, I'm helping people. Ah, there's so many coaches already. You know who doesn't have a fear whiplash Doctors, lawyers, anyone who's a professional. There's droves of people who are signing up for those kinds of things. Nobody thinks twice about the fear that someone else is already doing it things Nobody thinks twice about the fear that someone else is already doing it. But as creatives, as artists, as self-proclaimed coaches, as mentors, it's the most vulnerable thing because we are basically saying, hey, I believe in myself so much that I'm going to charge money for it, and we all know people like that. We all have these teachers. I've invested over 200K in my world for business and self-development and it takes some chutzpah to say like I'm charging 60,000 for two weekends for you to learn A, b and C. But people do it and people pay it and that's how I earn my living. But people do it and people pay it, and that's how I earn my living. So I want to invite everyone to really look at whatever fears they've already burned through and guess what? There's always going to be more good. You're alive, that's important.
Shane Kulman:But this started because it's about giving it space. So the idea of having this fear whiplash is no-transcript, and one of my commandments number three is get curious. So instead of whacking it away or proclaiming it's stupid, it's wrong, be like oh, that's interesting. That idea keeps coming back. Maybe I should write it down, or maybe I should just start talking about it and see if anybody knows anybody. And that's the kind of space. Space doesn't mean you're sitting in a cave meditating on it. It means let me just let it breathe. What's it like to have a business idea and have a corporate job and feel afraid every day? And what's it like to be liberated? Ooh. What's it like to be Shane? What's it like to be Brenda? What's it like to be Catherine and to just be in a stage in a state of wonderment? That is medicine.
Catherine:I want to circle back to something you said earlier and see if I can tie it into this. When you say giving fear space and I think that's the third commandment, if I'm correct yes, get curious, get curious. Is that similar to what you mean with play within a structure, or is that something else? Or is it the same?
Shane Kulman:I love you forever for that. So I wanted to find play for a minute, because it's rare to meet an adult that gets it, and I only get it because I've worked with kids. Play what I'm talking about has no agenda, no winner and no loser, just the experience. And I might ask you to repeat your question. But I wanted to find this first, because that's where things get messed up, when there's a winner and a loser. And that's the way our culture is, that's the way our government is, that's the way our sports teams are.
Shane Kulman:People subscribe to that methodology of winner and loser and I'm like I want to all win, can't we all win? And that's so sometimes when I speak to people they don't really know what I'm saying but they're like oh, she's so playful. Because I get really childlike excitement about what is it like to play. And the best example is two people who really understand contact improv, where you're just moving and touching and seeing what happens. Or you're just strolling along singing a song, hoping it rhymes, or you're just strolling along singing a song, hoping it rhymes. And the opposite play is, let's say, a child who's playing and I'm building a track with them, with trains, and the mother comes in and says, ooh, what color is this? How many trains are there? And there is a right and a wrong answer. And that is not the play that I love. It's not fun anymore Because even if the mother thinks she's being helpful, the child gets, let's say, they got it wrong.
Shane Kulman:The mother's like no, and that cadence of voice and that's the same thing we have internally, like, whatever it is, no, I don't want to go on a date with you, or no, I'm not going to work with you. There's like a oh, I did it wrong. Oh, how did I mess this up? And even if it's just a fleeting moment, let's say you're the most self-developed and you're like nope, a no is beautiful, I feel good about it. Someone unsubscribed from my email list, that's okay. They took away themselves and they, you know, leaving beautiful space. But there's a moment, a fleeting moment, of rejection, and that's the kind of thing where we start to learn these tiny lessons of I did it wrong and we make a deal with ourselves that say, well, I'm not going to do that anymore. That was uncomfortable, it was painful and I feel that rejection. Okay, so that was a tangent, but you asked something so good. You asked about play and something else.
Catherine:So I'll I'll sum it up over here. You were talking about the 10 commandment, number three. Here you were talking about the 10 commandment number three, which is about creativity, and then we also spoke about or you spoke about giving fear space, like whether it's space and words doing our best to not dissipate feelings. I'm going to wrap it up. I'm going to use your words to answer the question, so not using any words to dissipate our feelings.
Catherine:And you used a gorgeous example of the humiliation circle and your client moving really quickly and how you had her slow down so that you could ask hey, what's going on here? Then you get a different example of how you feel excited in our conversation here and that maybe you're going quickly, and so I introduced the question circling back to something you had said very early in the conversation was, which was bringing in play, but bringing play within a structure, and I was like, oh, is that another way of saying giving fear some space? But you actually went on and described play a little more beautifully. By the way, if I had to wrap it up, I would say you're saying play is present when there is no rejection, so you are truly playing when there is no winner and no loser. You're playing where there. It's just about the experience and within that experience, there is no no and there is no rejection. There's no way to get it wrong. It's just a way for you to have a good time.
Shane Kulman:Yes, and I'm so glad you're giving it to me because I do want to say there is. There can be rejection, and it's if you've ever seen two kids play together, even though there's no winner and loser, there's someone who wants something. There's no winner and loser. There's someone who wants something, there's a desire. And then it's about how do I, as a kid, deal with what if I get a no? Like what's next? And the kid's not thinking about this stuff. They're just like, oh, I'll grab it, maybe that's how I can get what I want. Or I'll go tell on someone. So then you learn another methodology of how to deal with a no. And it's like sometimes I see adults or kids use joy Like I'll be funny, I didn't want it, anyway, it's okay, I actually don't really like you that much, like there's a bunch of things that are coping mechanisms. But the idea is, as adults, kids don't have all this wisdom. We can use that to get curious. Wow, you just rejected me. Wow, I'm feeling like you never want to talk to me again. Are we going to be friends after you've rejected me? So this is making sense in my head, but I really want to qualify that.
Shane Kulman:Play means lots of stuff can come up, want to qualify. That play means lots of stuff can come up, but the common denominator is we can stay connected and see what's next. Versus like there's a winner and there's a loser, and the possibility of entering and having win-win situations can be gotten to more. With play, same with fear. It's like, let's say, fear is the no.
Shane Kulman:And I remember the first time I dealt with fear as a human being, adult, by myself. I had an out loud, existential conversation. I was jealous and I had a friend who was like liking the same guy that I liked. This wasn't that long ago and I saw him walk in and see her and he walked over to her and I was like, oh, look, look at long ago. And I saw him walk in and see her and he walked over to her and I was like, oh, look, look at this moment. And I felt, and instead of being and I felt my heart race, I lost my breath and I was like, okay, I got a little frozen, but I right away turned that into what's happening for me right now. I gave fear space and I was like, oh, I feel cold in my chest and it is spreading to my shoulders, and I felt my sphincter tighten and I felt like I was in fifth grade when I had shaved my eyebrows. I felt ugly. I felt like everybody knew that I was rejected. Maybe it was three seconds.
Shane Kulman:All of this happened and so I was using play. I was like, wow, I feel like a frozen icicle, I feel like cold and I felt mean and right away I was like man my friend's, not even that beautiful, like this. I got nasty right away and it was like in a playful way that I dealt with myself. I don't even know if any of that was true and I felt rejected and I went over to them and I'm like you guys, I'm feeling very left out over there, like nobody wants to kiss me at the prom, and it was a great moment and I really gave it to myself because those stories of fear will I keep thinking of, like like a jellyfish creature with lots of golden strings that just grow and grow, and all these stories and all these visions, and it's like that's creative, even the jellyfish idea.
Shane Kulman:So the other day somebody asked me in a mark group what do I like about being Jewish? And I said I like how we turn our suffering into entertainment and I really feel like that's the case here, because every suffering that I give to myself I've used it for stand up comedy, I've used it for something and to me that's the play. So I know I went on a longer wins an answer. But the idea of giving it space means to take into consideration. This isn't a death. I'm not dying.
Shane Kulman:Not everybody knows. This is not like running in the newspaper and everybody got it except me at me, because that's what's threatened, at least for me, is being left out, ostracized, not belonging, being the fool, like that's what fear tends to create. For me is just like we actually never thought you were smart all along, shane. You're just kind of dumb, but we, I don't know, we just let you hang around, but now the world thinks you're a loser, like at the end of it. That's like what? What is the most uncomfortable for me? So I, my coping mechanism, is getting everybody to like me and it feels really good, and I can see that about myself and um, the only way it doesn't work is when I overextend myself, which that's been my work is. Where do I spend energy and does it feel good? Or am I doing that old coping of reaching to get people to like me.
Brenda :Thank you. I love how you just brought in the third commandment again. Like you bring in curiosity so often, it's so genius. And even going up to that couple at the event and saying what you said, not only did you give it space, but you really made it playful. Talking about the prom, you brought a lightness to it, yet it was something that you were really feeling like. You felt the moment of rejection, and it's a great example of how to give something space at any given moment, even at an event or a party, and then play with it. I feel like everyone can breathe more when we're just honest and we give these things space, because I think they happen for us all the time we're human.
Shane Kulman:Yes, and I love what you brought up. Space doesn't mean quiet. I really want to drive that home, because people go home and they isolate and they give it space, but actually they're just sitting in poop like they're sitting and stewing. And really having that capability of using play which is number two and three, which is curiosity is the best muscle to keep keep working, Because guess what, If you don't, it slips out Like if I didn't say that thing to those two people, I would have started to like maybe make plans with my friend where that guy doesn't hang out. I would have started to do something that was just like creating a connection of inauthentic connection which feels bad.
Brenda :It does feel bad. I call those sideways behaviors like where you do something false, like sideways, to just like get around the thing and you're talking about we're going right in, baby, we're just going to say the fear, and you said it in a way that was really respectful to yourself, like you didn't have to completely come out and show all of your guts.
Shane Kulman:Yes, I think that was staring yes, Like I've always been rejected. In the third grade I was rejected and you guys made me feel that way. It's like too much, too much. I know that person who's like man, we're on a zoom, we don't want to know your whole therapy session. You know like just share the moment and keep it moving and take your stuff, you know, to whatever tools you process with, but in that moment help yourself be graceful, playful and move forward.
Brenda :I think that's such a great piece of advice for people. It's helped me so much in my life to just add more play in the moment and it definitely takes practice. Like you're not going to just be good at it immediately, I mean maybe you will right. But you know it might be awkward at first but it's worth it, especially with your kids, with your family, with your partner. You can bring this play into anything. That's actually been. One of the best things that I learned as a parent when my kids were really young is how to be playful when things get tight and my kids were upset. Can I just make a joke? Or can I just lighten up over here, open my heart and just be playful about it? Oops, the milk spilled on the floor. Look at it or whatever the thing is, and all of a sudden everyone can breathe.
Shane Kulman:Making up songs like you just did, is so key, like my check bank, my what is it? My check account is overdrawn. Dude Moments that are just like you know they're blips in your life, but it's just like takes you down and makes you feel like all these things and it's just like go sing about it. I love that.
Brenda :It's just coming back again to giving it space. I have a question for you, for our listeners who are listening to all of this, and I love how we've only talked about a few of the 10 commandments there's. There are 10. Um, can you share a practice that maybe you do, or something that you could leave our listeners with, like a practice that they could do easily, easily at home to fuck their fears?
Shane Kulman:Yes, well, I mean, part of me wants to be creative, which is another commandment. I'm just going to stick with the one we just did, which is just like sing what's happening right now. Just sing it. And this isn't because you want to be a singer. A singer, this is to entertain the little child in you that cannot speak to or does not want to feel what they're feeling.
Shane Kulman:I really believe that's where fear comes from, is it's? It is some experience. Could have been a stranger on the street. So don't go into blaming your parents. It's anyone who was more powerful, taller, bigger that shut you down, and it could have happened on the bus on your way to school.
Shane Kulman:It doesn't mean so in that moment, let's say, you lock yourself out. Right, that's a moment. Oh, we had that moment. Like you lock yourself out, you forgot your keys, and the first thing I think to myself is I fucked up. So wouldn't that be so? I fucked up and being mad at myself is going to go down one road, but another one is like look how I messed up. I forgot my keys. What an idiot Like.
Shane Kulman:If you just bring a little bit of levity to it in the moment, something about it, something about. It gets lighter, maybe a bird shows up. Maybe you're like, how did I do this again? Maybe now you have content. Maybe you were like, oh, today's the day I got to make that extra key and hide it in my garden so it adds more juice to problem solving skills. Like, if you want to feel bad, feel bad, but sing about it. And I have clients that feel bad and are like me, pretty extreme highs and lows. So if you just sing about it, you know I'm a fucking idiot. Do da, do da. It just something good's going to happen. I don't know how else to say it and I have a million different examples, but that one is just fun and you know what. You don't even have to be a great lyricist. Just sing what the meanest thing you're thinking and see what happens.
Brenda :That's such a fun practice. Again, you're coming back to giving space playing, being curious. It just feels fun when you sing that song. I'm laughing over here listening to it. So, if you're listening and you try this practice by Shane, we would love to hear about it.
Shane Kulman:We are the world with all of our. I'm a fucking idiot, Like just all the things that we say I love that.
Brenda :Okay, I'm going to switch gears a little bit as we begin to wind down. I think I'm leaving here with way more questions than I came with, and here's my question for you, shane what is a desire that you have for yourself?
Shane Kulman:I own a theater slash gallery space in Rockaway where people come to embody everything I've just talked about, and it's also an event space. So it's rented out and I have a manager running it and so I get to do all this stuff I love. But they make sure that it's paid for because people and it's a theater gallery space in a building I own, so there's no pressure for rent paying or. But it's just a place that changes with the mood, as I do in terms of decoration and theme. That's my desire and it really is the way that I help and heal the world is not with my smart logical head, which my gifted and talented self wants to believe. It's about getting on a stage and playing with visibility, and no one even has to be in the room. It could be a person with visibility with themselves, with a mirror, and as a special educator, I really value going with the slowest participant speed and giving people as much modifications as they need. Like you want to do it away from the mirror, you want to do it sitting on the floor in a bowl? Let's just meet where you're at, and that's what my teachers did for me and that's my big big.
Shane Kulman:Why is I learned unconditional love from these two people and I'm not easy, you know like I just thought everybody. You know I'm not easy. I've been triggered and run to the bathroom, I've gotten triggered and tried to hit someone. I've thrown gum at them. I'm like what is going like? Triggered in the true sense, and they still loved me, they still believed in me and I was like this is some out of this world stuff. So I want to own a space like that and it's a black box. There's no, you know, it can be whatever it wants to be. It could be a place to come and scream. It could be a place to do your one woman show. Stevie Nicks might show up and perform Like. It's the space that everyone talks about, but it's super underground and it just magnetizes everybody in.
Shane Kulman:Oh, yes, Well so shall it be this desire, and so much bigger and wetter than you can even possibly imagine. Thank you for that space to articulate all that I desire on this powerful day.
Brenda :So good, Catherine. Anything that you want to jump in and say Catherine, anything that you want to jump in and say she's saying just thank you.
Catherine:Thank you for everything that you so generously gave us today and our listeners, and I'm deeply grateful to have had you on.
Brenda :Thank you. Yeah, thank you so much, Shane. This was absolutely incredible.
Shane Kulman:Any last thoughts that you want to say before we wrap up? Oh, so when I just asked myself in a short space, I thought the sentence give yourself a chance, yeah, yeah, don't shut yourself down. Like something I teach clients and I use myself is who cares Like who cares you look like a fool. Who cares Like who cares you look like a fool. Who cares Like? If you think about all these weird characters that on TV, like Captain Kangaroo and I wouldn't say you know the word weird ties back to witches but like Mr Rogers or Snuffleupagus or Fairytale Theater, you know it's like these are people's creations that we get to imagine and watch. And give yourself a chance Like you don't. You don't have to do it full time, but when you have a quirky thought or a secret, little desire that pops up, give it a chance to breathe and before you smack it away, before you have that fear whiplash smack it away.
Brenda :Before you have that fear whiplash, let it have some space. What a beautiful lesson that I will be leaving here with today. Give yourself a chance so beautiful. If you want to contact Shane and find out all of the many offers and invitations and let me tell you, they are juicy and if you want to find out the rest of the 10 commandments of fucking your fears, you can follow her on social media. We're going to drop her social media handles in the show notes and you can follow her there. It is quite a ride to follow Shane, it's. It's really a true joy and it's been an absolute joy to have you here today. Thank you so much for your generosity and your play, and I know our listeners will benefit from the space that we gave today to fuck your fears, baby.
Shane Kulman:Thank you both so much for bringing out my concise brilliance. I always think it's not easy, but here it is very easy and very clear and it feels so good in my body. So thank you both.
Brenda :Thank you for joining us on the Desire is Medicine podcast.
Catherine:Desire invites us to be honest, loving and deeply intimate with ourselves and others. You can find our handles in the show notes. We'd love to hear from you.
