77 ~ Navigating Conversations When Things Feel Sticky

For our Valentine's Day episode, we explore and demonstrate how to navigate sticky conversations. Often, when disagree or maybe even judge each other, we tend to disconnect. But there's another way. We can hold space for each other and lean in regardless of our differences, connection is still a possibility. 

On this episode of the Desire as Medicine podcast, we (Brenda and Catherine) invite you to be open to connection regardless of your differences. Navigating conversations when there are differences isn't easy but it is possible. 

Our candid conversation celebrates the richness found in our own personal differences. Whether it's political, cultural, racial, socioeconomic or other, connection is more often than not still available. We challenge the notion of judgment and instead focus on holding space for one another with compassion as we navigate connection regardless of our differences. 

This episode dives into the complexities of connection, emphasizing the importance of holding space for each other’s vulnerabilities and differences. We discuss the power of emotional presence, and how to cultivate deeper intimacy in relationships. 

Highlights of this Episode:
• Discussing the essence of desire and connection beyond romance 
• Exploring cultural differences and their impact on relationships 
• Holding space as an essential practice for emotional intimacy 
• The importance of vulnerability and crying in conversations 
• Letting go of stories to embrace true feelings 
• Understanding the balance between giving and receiving love 
• Encouraging open discussions about difficult topics 
• The role of emotional presence in fostering connections

We would love to know how this episode touched you.  Happy Valentine's Day.  May your connections be honest, deep and nourishing.  

Chapters

• 0:08 Exploring Desire & Vulnerability in Conversation
• 14:32 Embracing Vulnerability and Connection in Conversation
• 22:06 Exploring Vulnerability in Relationships
• 37:41 Navigating Sticky Conversations With Honesty

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:08

Welcome to Desire is Medicine. We are two very different women living a life led by desire, inviting you into our world.

Speaker 2: 0:16

I'm Brenda. I'm a devoted practitioner to being my fully expressed true self in my daily life. Motherhood relationships and my business Desire has taken me on quite a ride and every day I practice listening to and following the voice within. I'm a middle school teacher turned coach and guide of the feminine.

Speaker 1: 0:36

And I'm Catherine, devoted to living my life as the truest and hopefully the highest version of me. I don't have children, I've never been married. I've spent equal parts of my life in corporate as in some down and low shady spaces. I was the epitome of tired and wired and my path led me to explore desire. I'm a coach, guide, energy worker and a forever student.

Speaker 2: 0:58

Even after decades of inner work, we are humble beginners on the mat, still exploring, always curious. We believe that listening to and following the nudge of desire is a deep spiritual practice that helps us grow.

Speaker 1: 1:12

On the Desires Medicine podcast. We talk to each other, we interview people we know and love about the practice of desire, bringing in a very important piece that is often overlooked being responsible for our desire. Welcome back family and friends, If we're able to drop this week. This week holds Valentine's Day, and Valentine's Day, according to Wikipedia, is like St Valentine's Day or the Feast of St Valentine. It's celebrated annually on the 14th. Originated as a Christian feast day honoring the unmartyred Valentine, it has also become a significant like cultural, religious and commercial celebration of romance and love in many world religions. Now, as with most things in our life, it can be talked about from many different angles. Right, and today, as always, I am joined by the lovely Brenda, my co-host, and we really wanted to bring something special for Valentine's. Ultimately, whenever we think about desire, what what do you really want, In addition to intimacy, which is created when there's a lot of truth in the room, and connection, which is usually created when two humans or more are being honest and can collaborate with one another and bring in even more truth and more intimacy in the conversation? There's so much that connection that can be had and on this Valentine's Day, on this week where we can honor just romantic relationship or relationship in general. I'd love to honor my co-host, Brenda, and I am going to say that she is an absolutely beautiful human who I've been able to ride, just been able to ride with, with so much joy in my heart, and I could talk about so many different like perfect dots of our connection. But today I'm going to talk about our differences. Another friend of mine brought to my attention our differences and how we don't actually talk about it in our intro. So I am, for some people, white passing, for others maybe not so much very visibly and audibly Latin, and it's very clear for some and maybe not for others. And Brenda is a white Jewish woman, and yet we connect on a weekly basis to talk about one thing that's politics, Sometimes it's Jewish and Palestinian relations, Sometimes it's just things that are happening around the world, and I have to tell you that it's scary for me to go into these conversations with her and this might be happening for you guys as well, whether it's in connection with your partners or connection with others.

Speaker 1: 4:50

And my favorite phrase is is there anything that you need when Brenda is going through something right? Because there are things that are happening around the world and we don't have to get into the nitty gritty of the circus. That's one of the takeaways that I would love for every listener to walk away with today, and so I'm bringing this forth. I'm going to be introducing Brenda soon by asking her a question. But what's most important in those moments is just for me to sit here heart open. What's most important in those moments is just for me to sit here, heart open, or even if it's in person, and realize that whatever is occurring for her is real and my opinion of it doesn't matter. I'm going to say that again Whatever is happening for her is very real and my opinion of it doesn't matter.

Speaker 1: 5:49

It doesn't have to be smart what she's going through. It doesn't have to be stupid. It doesn't have to be well thought out. It doesn't have to be not thought out. When we're connecting and we're wanting intimacy, the truth is that my only job is to hold space. I'm sure sometimes I do it badly. Sometimes, hopefully, I do it very well. And with that, my lovely Brenda, how does it feel for you whenever we're talking about something that's really sticky but we're not going to talk about the actual logistics or the pieces and parts. Maybe I'm not so well versed Right and also I'm not having the same lived experience as you and as I started this podcast today, we are different, of different cultural backgrounds, different socioeconomic backgrounds, different yeah we were.

Speaker 1: 6:43

Well, I guess we're both from New York, we have some geographical closeness, but how does that feel for you, for someone to just be there and listen?

Speaker 2: 6:53

Thank you, catherine. Wow, I just want to say my heart is beating so fast right now. I'm just going to drop into this space and just say I feel so much love right now and my body's like shaking and my heart is beating so fast. And I'm saying that to be present and also to demonstrate that you can say that at any given time, you can create space for yourself. So I'm grateful for knowing that. How does it feel to be going through something that feels not personal because it's happening in the world, but also deeply personal, and then inside of that, it's like me and then my ancestors. It's like so multifaceted. Yet here I am, brenda, in this seat, experiencing something that feels really scary and thus really vulnerable. Scary and thus really vulnerable. And I've been taught to hide that. So I've been taught to not talk about it. I've been taught to push it down and just put on a happy face, not overtly, no one told me that, but this is what I learned through my embodied experience. I don't have any anger or or hurt at that, or judgment for learning that, because I understand that that's survival, like that's how we survive. So how does it feel when you hold space for me, when you hold space. For me, it feels like everything.

Speaker 2: 9:00

Earlier on this call, when we got on, catherine broached this topic of what our mutual friends shared. Like, oh, we don't actually talk about our ethnicity or our differences. We talk about some differences, but not really the a lot of them. Like we don't, we just don't talk about it. We haven't gone there. We certainly don't talk about politics on this podcast, and I was having some feelings about something that I'm moving through, things that are going on in the world being a Jewish woman. It's been scary and it's brought up a lot of things for me, a lot of feelings and a lot of beautiful pieces as well.

Speaker 2: 9:39

So when Catherine looked at me and you Catherine, talking in the third person and directly to you, you just said to me what do you need? Is there anything you need? And that just bubbled up all of my feelings. My lower lip just started quivering, my lower lip. That reminds me of my grandfather's lower lip, like I literally have his lips, and it feels relevant to say that in this moment, because so much of the pain that we do experience in our culture or our religion is ancestral, it's ours and it's ancestral. So I could feel that in my body as I received your question, and then the tears can flow, and that's probably one of the most beautiful gifts that I think anyone could give anybody, and Catherine does it exquisitely well. Is there anything you need? And then just holding space for that.

Speaker 2: 10:53

I don't feel any amount of trying to fix or change. She doesn't go on my ride, folks Like. She doesn't get all involved in the drama. There's not even any drama. I shouldn't say drama. There's no drama over here. She doesn't get involved in the story or even the details of what I might be talking about. Ever it. It's a gift that Catherine has and I think it's a really high quality gift that so many people aspire to, and what a great thing to talk about on Valentine's day. So I'll just pause there because I think that I answered your question.

Speaker 1: 11:43

You did answer it and I will happily take the fire off you, off the hot seat. Yes, I know that question was deep and thank you so much for being so honest and so vulnerable and just willing to share with our listeners how that felt for you, how it feels for you when we're touching touchy subjects. And yeah, and I just ask you, is there anything that you need and I want my listeners to know, or our listeners to know? I cry on the podcast all the time, so it's not just like a crying while being recorded. It's sort of like when in your life are you in a circle under certain circumstances whether it's at work or maybe with a work colleague, or maybe with a family member that you're not that close to, and you're broaching a subject where it really touches your heart and where it's painful for you and you feel like the other person just may not get it. And one of the questions when we want to cry, people are like but what's wrong? Right, as if when things are right, we don't want to cry. Because I cry even when things are going well. There I am, crying, full of joy, there I am, and it's a big deal just because for many years I couldn't really cry. It wasn't a thing before 30, but it's so vulnerable to just let yourself be seen in our culture just dripping tears in your cry spot when there are so many opinions about the cry spot, and this is we're going to be dropping this Valentine's Day week and I want to encourage everyone that if you are Brenda, let you know what it's like when she's just receiving that hey, she's in the receiver end of somebody holding space for her and how beautiful it feels for her. But we can also, when we're in the crying seat right, just say nothing's wrong, but I am hurting, like how big is that? Like nothing is wrong. As in, maybe you recognize that what you're crying about can really only be felt by you. We don't really need the other person to know why it hurts, why we have a boo-boo, like that part doesn't matter. The part that's really healing is for us to be able to be seen by another person and held, and that there's connection there between the two of us, because I can already hear some of you listening going oh yeah, this is really easy for Brenda and Catherine because they have this relationship, or it's really easy because Catherine has all this experience and she could just ask Brenda the story and Brenda could just drop it and cry Ha ha ha. No, not like that. I also want to share that. There are plenty of times where I'm somewhere crying and I let the other person, the person that's witnessing, know nothing is wrong. I am just crying, I just need a minute, or I would love a hug, or can you hold my hand, or can your shoulder just touch mine, or can you just breathe with me. Sometimes my needs vary depending on the circumstance, and I'm able to also ask for it.

Speaker 1: 15:13

Brenda and I have the luxury and the privilege of having not just deep relationships with each other, but with many other women. We've wanted to, but with many other women we've wanted to intentionally build that, and we have it. We may not have spoken specifically about it on this podcast I'm unclear right now. I know that she and I talk about it pretty regularly because it's one of the gratitudes we have, for sure, but this is how it's created Like. These are the steps.

Speaker 1: 15:49

We don't just rah-rah each other. We're not just there to witness each other's wins and support each other when things are going great, because that part's not that hard it's. How can you be there for someone when things are shit, how can or how can you have compassion for yourself when things are shit and still be in connection with another human without making anybody wrong, without needing things to be any different than what they are? Because I think that's kind of like where we can get tripped up when we start bringing in our opinions Once your opinion comes in the room. Now it's a different conversation. What comes up for you, brenda?

Speaker 2: 16:37

I posted something in my stories yesterday that is the meat of this, like the bottom of it. There's so many bottoms, but, it said, all connection begins with how you hold yourself. I saw that and I was like, wow, that's so true, because everything that we're talking about here like we've both done a considerable amount of work ourselves to be able to understand and embody these things that you're talking about, so that when we come to the table, we can meet in this beautiful space and we practice it. So I think it requires a certain mastery of self, which is something that Catherine and I both work on individually, and we work with other people, we hold clients through this process. I really think it begins there and with that, my goodness, one of the biggest pieces that has me be able to meet you in the space. Catherine is letting go of story, and I work on this with my clients all the time. My clients all the time.

Speaker 2: 18:01

We're so addicted to story. Our minds and the people around us generally tell us that something is wrong. What is it? What is it? What is it? And I think we're just so uncomfortable with just plain feelings, and I've practiced this so much over the last decade. It's taken a while to like release the drama, release the story and can you be with just the sensation and just the feeling. And sometimes there is story that needs to be talked about or shared, where there might be details or pieces involved in the emotion, but sometimes not. There's times where I've just been through a big experience, like we've talked about recently in some recent episodes about expansion and contraction, where my body's just going through something and it brings up emotion. Maybe it's bringing up old emotion, old hurts. Something wants to be released, it wants to be felt, and I think our go-to is to make a story about it, add a story like our mind wants to attach to a problem, and there doesn't always have to be one, it could just be pure emotion. And I think that's what I was feeling at the beginning, right before we recorded, which is what led to this conversation. It's that and there's also deep embodiment in my cells of past stories and past experiences that we all have. We all have this. If you are human listening to this, then you have people who have come before you, you have ancestors who have experienced hurt in whatever your culture is, whatever your religion, whatever your background is, and you now have it and hold it. So we have this beautiful opportunity to release it.

Speaker 2: 19:43

But I don't want to go too deep into that. What I want to say is what you're talking about, catherine, is it requires a taking up of space that's really uncomfortable for women a taking up of space that's really uncomfortable for women. It's really uncomfortable. It's so much easier to just say, oh, nothing's wrong, and then go over there in the other room and just deal with it yourself, or not even just take it out on people you love and bury it, or go shopping or drink or eat or whatever you do. It's like uncomfortable to take up space in that way, because we've been taught to not do that as women. And so to be able to receive the question and the love that you're offering me, would you say to me is there anything you need? Like, wow, the depths that have gone into for me to be able to receive that and receive it as love is pretty huge, and so I want to offer that to everyone.

Speaker 2: 20:52

And when Catherine and I were talking about potentially recording for Valentine's Day, I've been really sitting with the last few days. I didn't even share this with Catherine, but one of the things that I thought about recording on was receiving, because we give and receive love all the time and I think we're so much more comfortable giving, giving, giving. But it's so vulnerable to receive and have the attention on you and I think we've just been taught and conditioned to not have it. But I will say it feels kind of good because I think that we also really want the attention. We like, same time, don't want it and want it. So when you were like, oh, I'm going to take Brenda off the hot seat, I was like why I really like it here? Because I think that as women, we hide and we cloak how much attention we really want. But we really do need to expand our innards, expand our ability and our capacity to receive, like to receive your question and really be in it. What comes up for you, catherine.

Speaker 1: 22:03

Thanks so much for that. So many things. I love the reminder of how tempting it is to say to somebody nothing's wrong, everything's fine. The desire to not want to go into it and if I did want to go into it. Or when not want to go into it, and if I did want to go into it. Or when people want to go into it, they really want to go into the story of it.

Speaker 1: 22:23

Not necessarily our first step isn't usually oh, I'm going to be with the sensation and the feeling and be witness here. Yes, how do I succinctly tell this story in such a way that this person knows exactly what I'm feeling? How do I become Quentin Tarantino in this millisecond, chandra Rimes, and just deliver it perfectly so that you know exactly how I feel? So that you know exactly how I feel, because that would be easier than pausing and feeling all of the sensations in my body and just describing what that feels like, describing that, oh, my heart hurts, my body aches, I feel tears welling up, my skin feels cold to the touch, my heart is pounding, my heart feels like it's breaking into a thousand pieces. That part is so tough to relay as a society we are so used to hearing tough to relay.

Speaker 1: 23:38

As a society we are so used to hearing whenever we muster the courage to say a version of that and then usually are met with but what's wrong or how do we fix this?

Speaker 1: 23:50

It's almost easier to just say nothing's wrong and I'm fine. But this is a great exercise in receiving, like you said, whether it's you saying I just want to share how I'm feeling, I just want to share the sensations in my body and sharing what that is, nothing's wrong, I don't want to fix it, I just want to witness this so that we can be witnessed and we can receive someone else's attention as a practice ground. I think I started today with saying can we just hold space? And now we're at the point of the conversation where I can say can I just be held, can I just allow this person to hold space for me? When someone says what's wrong, can I say I wouldn't say something is wrong, but I am having big feelings and this is what I'm feeling, and just go into the sensation. And if the person says, well, I really want to understand, I get to say I'm actually not ready to talk about the story yet.

Speaker 2: 25:41

I get to say I'm actually not ready to talk about's the beauty that I've experienced. It's almost like magic If you just feel it, if you just let the feelings come and just give yourself the space to cry or share the feelings or share the fears. Whatever it does move. The irony is that when we add the story or the problem to it and the details, it kind of makes it worse. It's kind of like feeding the fire because we get more and more agitated and upset.

Speaker 2: 26:24

You know, catherine and I have both had this experience in working with people. You can feel when somebody is going through an emotional release and you could feel when they're kind of getting to the other side of it and then you boom. You could feel when they added story because it starts all over again and there's nothing wrong with that. You could do that. I'm not passing judgment, but I'm just saying that you could feel it and we do it to ourselves all the time. Could feel it and we do it to ourselves all the time. This takes a long time to practice and master and any story can be a lot of fun.

Speaker 2: 27:04

So, yeah, so I just wanted to add that piece and also releasing like really receiving your question. Is there anything you need? Oh, right there, I have to let go of control. I have to let go of any agenda or plan that I had of what we're going to talk about or how it's going to go or how I'm going to feel. Because now I'm just if I'm fully open and in a receptive mode.

Speaker 2: 27:34

You're kind of like in your involuntary, where you just like, ah, feelings are coming and my lips are quivering and my eyes are tearing and it's vulnerable and it's actually really beautiful. And those pieces that come through that we usually say we don't want to share, like those pieces that we exile, that we say, oh yeah, this thing, this thought, this feeling, I'm going to exile you, I don't want to face you Really, it just wants to be integrated into your system. And so when you actually just give it space the very thing that you don't want to folks there's a wholeness that comes. There's a wholeness that comes because wholeness comes from accepting all the parts of ourselves.

Speaker 1: 28:29

And so it's quite a beautiful ironic process, so true and so good. Like I just want to circle back to what you said, like giving it space, like giving that part of you airtime so that you can feel what you're feeling, be witness in what you're feeling, that part of you that you feel like, ah, it's not so pretty, it's not put together. I don't really like it. I don't want it to be seen. That part of us, the part where we're vulnerable, maybe we're not crying, maybe we're just like I feel really exposed in this conversation. Oh, we're broaching a topic that makes me want to run.

Speaker 1: 29:06

Right, sometimes that happens in relationship. Or you're speaking to a girlfriend and you're like, oh, wow, we're talking about something now. I don't really know how to support you here. We're talking about something now. I don't really know how to support you here. I don't really know how to be with you here. This is a really touchy or hard topic, right, being able to admit where we are in real time in conversation is so uncomfortable, because it has us have to show that we're not air quotes. Perfect, right, we're giving that part of a space, we're almost shining a light on it, and that's the very thing that will help the relationship deepen, which is ultimately what we're talking about this week, in which we can do our best to show up for ourselves and others while relating to each other, to increase the intimacy and value of the connection while relating with this person.

Speaker 2: 30:19

Going into the hard topics is so good and that's how you really opened. This was talking about these things that we don't even actually talk about, but they're always in the room. These hard topics are always in the room and we often want to skate over them and not talk about them, and you know you don't always want to be talking about this everywhere you go, like at the supermarket. You're not going to necessarily bring up these things, so you get to pick and choose and I definitely pick and choose it here with Catherine and on this podcast. But I will say the hard topics, those things that are a little, have a rub. That's where the juice is, that's where the real juice and connection is, and we are talking about love and deep connections on Valentine's Day and we want this every day. Valentine's Day is just highlights it. It comes from yourself. It comes from what are you willing to reveal about yourself, what are you willing to share. Are you willing to go into the juicier or harder topics, however you want to call it, and really share what's alive for you? And sharing my feelings this morning before we recorded today and I will include Catherine's willingness to be there with me on these topics that are really hard. You know, I was talking about being a Jewish woman and having some feelings about that. Today, that could potentially be a sticky subject, and it doesn't have to be. It does not have to be, and I think this is some medicine that we need in the world right now. We need to be willing to broach these topics and just be with each other. You don't need to add your opinion. You don't need to be right. You don't need to add your opinion. You don't need to be right. You don't need to give people a perspective of why they're wrong or more information. You don't need to look it up on Wikipedia. We just need to listen to each other and hear each other.

Speaker 2: 32:42

That is what I've learned in the last 18 months in this political climate. I have stretched myself inside and out to understand some of the things that have gone on in this world. People that have completely different opinions than me, people who live completely differently, maybe against my own values, and even then I'm like what is going on with these people? What can I just open my heart and get really curious, and it's been hard. That has worked me behind the scenes so much and I don't need to change it or find them wrong, but to understand each other, like to really understand each other, or at least try to, because we're all coming from somewhere, we all have some cause or some thing that we're passionate about that pushes us or causes us to do the things that we do. And who's to say my way is right? My way is right over here? But I've just been really curious what's going on in the world with people, and I've been practicing this on a global scale and it's really worked me.

Speaker 2: 33:58

And here we are doing it here as well. You could just start with yourself, start with your friends, start with your partner and just listen, just listen. You don't even have to understand what the other person's talking about. To sit in front of a human with their heart open and just listen and feel them, even if you wholeheartedly disagree, can you see the human in front of you and just feel them? That's connection. We don't have to agree, but that is connection but that is connection A thousand percent.

Speaker 1: 34:42

I love that you brought in the whole aspect of what happens when we don't understand each other. When this person is telling you something, whether it's they're arguing for something and it doesn't make any sense to you, or they have a particular pain point, you have no idea why they're in pain. And our default is well, I want to understand it so I could be with this person in this pocket, in this conversation pocket. So we have to be with one another, so that, or we believe that we have to be with someone and not just be with them in conversation, but understand, fully understand, what they're going through in order to be able to be with them. And I love that you brought up what happens when you don't understand each other, because the truth of the matter is that we don't actually have to understand each other. We do not have to understand each other.

Speaker 1: 35:44

Listeners, I'm going to say this really again and again and again we do not have to understand each other to just be with one another. I don't have to understand somebody's rage, their anger, their perspective, the way they view the world, whether it's political or religious, or you know. I don't have to be on their side on their marital argument, or on their side with their university problem, or whatever it is that is on the table, or whatever it is that is on the table. If the person has strong feelings about it, the only thing I need to do as a friend, holding space, as a listener, is to hear what they're going through, to be with them with what they're going with what they are going through, to feel them in their feelings. That's it. That's what's going to help me be in more intimate relationship with them.

Speaker 1: 36:48

The understanding piece would be helpful, but unless I'm their therapist or their holder in some way, that part actually does not matter. It's the least important part, because I don't have to fix anything, I don't have to change anything. My only job is to hold space and to be in space with them. Hold space and to be in space with them. With that, I want to really, really invite everyone listening to deeper courage, to be in intimate relationship, to allow someone to either hold space for you or for you to be willing to hold space for another. That understanding one another isn't the first step when the sticky conversations come up. The first step is can I just be with what's true? Thank you so much, everyone. If something resonated for you, please let us know. We'd love to hear from you. If you feel so inspired to leave a review, please do that as well. We can't wait to meet with you again. Thanks so much.

Speaker 2: 38:13

Thank you for joining us on the Desire is Medicine podcast.

Speaker 1: 38:17

Desire invites us to be honest, loving and deeply intimate with ourselves and others. You can find our handles in the show notes. We'd love to hear from you.