91 ~ Freedom From The Inside

When we’re young, freedom feels like staying up late, eating candy for dinner, and having no one tell us what to do. But as we grow up, that surface-level idea of freedom gets challenged. True freedom, is not about indulging in everything, it’s about having genuine choice and the ability to act from our values, not our wounds.

Brenda and Catherine explore their personal paths to authentic freedom. Brenda opens up about breaking free from perfectionism and people-pleasing, where retail therapy once offered short-lived comfort but not true satisfaction. Catherine shares how her struggle with overthinking and mental pro/con lists left her exhausted and paralyzed. Her early attempts at liberation looked like apathy and rebellion, but they didn’t bring peace. 

Together, they uncover the uncomfortable (yet essential) "messy middle" - the part of the journey where we swing between extremes before finding alignment. They also explore how modern freedom includes digital boundaries, discerning true desire from disguised compulsion, and redefining success on our own terms.

If you’ve ever felt trapped by your habits, your phone, your finances, or your own expectations, this episode offers insight and permission to begin again.

Highlights from the Episode:

• Freedom requires taking responsibility for our choices—not escaping them
• The path often swings from constraint to rebellion before balance emerges
• Catherine's journey led from anxious overthinking to clarity and peace
• Brenda’s evolution moved from perfectionism to empowered decision-making
• True freedom means responding from our values rather than our conditioning
• Mindful spending is more liberating than impulsive consumption
• Digital boundaries are essential—choosing when and how to engage
• Saying both yes and no with equal ease is a sign of inner freedom
• Compulsions can masquerade as "freedom" but actually keep us stuck
• The “messy middle” is where transformation and self-trust are forged

 ✨ Where in your life are you craving more freedom?
 ✨ What have you already freed yourself from?

If any part of this episode resonated, let us know, write a review, and share this episode with someone you love. 

Chapters

• 9:00 From Overthinking to Self-Trust
• 11:20 Rebellion vs. True Liberation
• 15:00 Living Your Values, Not Conditioning
• 18:00 Mindful Resource Management as Freedom
• 22:30 Digital Boundaries and Personal Liberation

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:08

Welcome to Desire is Medicine. We are two very different women living a life led by desire.

Speaker 2: 0:14

Inviting you into our world. I'm Brenda. I'm a devoted practitioner to being my fully expressed true self in my daily life, motherhood relationships and my business Desire has taken me on quite a ride and every day I practice listening to and following the voice within. I'm a middle school teacher turned coach and guide of the feminine.

Speaker 1: 0:36

And I'm Catherine, devoted to living my life as the truest and hopefully the highest version of me. I don't have children, I've never been married. I've spent equal parts of my life in corporate as in some down and low shady spaces. I was the epitome of tired and wired and my path led me to explore desire. I'm a coach, guide, energy worker and a forever student.

Speaker 2: 0:58

Even after decades of inner work, we are humble beginners on the mat, still exploring, always curious. We believe that listening to and following the nudge of desire is a deep spiritual practice that helps us grow.

Speaker 1: 1:12

On the Desires Medicine podcast. We talk to each other, we interview people we know and love about the practice of desire, bringing in a very important piece that is often overlooked being responsible for our desire. Welcome back, friends. Recently I was in a conversation talking about freedom, and when we think about freedom in the context of personal growth or when I think about it, it's definitely different than when I was a kid. I think being a kid, freedom feels like turning 18, being out of the house, being able to go to sleep when you want, wake up when you want All these freedoms because somebody else is deciding for you, right? It's like all these places where we want to be responsible, or not necessarily. We want to be responsible. I think it's more. We don't want to have to listen to someone, but then 18, 19 comes and we don't necessarily want to be responsible for that either. We just don't want to be led and ruled by another. But it's really not about just doing whatever you want, because that doesn't really exist. There are consequences to our actions and our inaction. It's really not about just doing whatever you want, because that doesn't really exist. There are consequences to our actions and our inactions. We definitely feel or have a more functioning life when we are responsible for ourselves. And so Brenda and I then started talking about it. She's here, looking lovely as always. She's here looking lovely as always.

Speaker 1: 2:44

When I feel into freedom for myself, I feel so grateful for the level of freedom that I have. And when I entered into personal growth whether it was energy work, meditation, tai Chi, qigong and then therapy after that I think the biggest things I wanted was to stop overthinking, to stop feeling so anxious about things. I used to worry about what is the best decision, left, right. I mean, I used to make myself insane thinking about all the worst case scenarios and how I would deal with those. I'd go with a huge pro-con list all the time in my mind, and that definitely did not feel like freedom.

Speaker 1: 3:32

I think what I would have wanted at the time was maybe a magic wand or to just wake up and not care. I think the first step for me in that arena of freedom was just not caring. The efforts like the big old fuck. It's like fuck this person, fuck this, fuck that fuck like it. It was just like a lot of repel. I just don't care. That was my first step. I don't think I ever in my wildest dreams would know what it feels like now, 30 plus years into it. What is it like for you, brenda?

Speaker 2: 4:14

I love all of this that you're sharing. You made me think that what is it that I wanted to have in my life and I definitely wanted to stop beating myself up in my life. And I definitely wanted to stop beating myself up. I wanted to stop second guessing myself. I wanted to be able to make a decision, a choice for my life and feel really good about it and trust myself. And I wanted I wanted to be able to follow desire, which led me on an entire path of following desire, making quite a mess, because, when I look back, a lot of it was from a place of starvation and deprivationvation, from being bound up for so long living the life that I lived, focusing more on Getting it right and being perfect, partly so I don't have to beat myself up. If I'm perfect, then I'm safe and I don't have to beat myself up and go into that crazy, horrible head spin.

Speaker 2: 5:27

And it was like I kind of like the Roman Colosseum when the lions are kept in cages for weeks before a big event in ancient Rome where they would go fight the gladiators or another animal.

Speaker 2: 5:43

They put the animals in cages so that they get like ferocious and really hungry. I was not saying I was ferocious, but I was very. I was ferociously hungry, let's say that, and it led to what I thought was a lot of freedom, was actually a lot of rebellion and acting out of starvation and deprivation, which sent me on a whole journey, and I had to go through that. I had to go through that part of my journey, which was wonderful and exciting and adventurous, and it was a lot of desire, but it led me down a road of crashing eventually, where then I had to really learn what real freedom was. But those are the things that came to mind when you asked what is it that I originally wanted? And, basically, how do you trust yourself, how do you live a life, how do you be who you truly are, live a life that you love and trust yourself along the way?

Speaker 1: 6:46

I love how you talk about, you know, the rebellious piece, because there is a pendulum swing from where we are to where we weren't before. We can sort of swing back to center. There's almost like complete 180 away from where we are. I think, coming my starting place of rescuer, of like where can I help or where am I needed to? Then really being in discernment and the buckets I thought that was the next location. But being there for really long, being the kind of person that's like you know what, this person doesn't deserve that, or this person didn't earn this, or why am I doing this for this person that sort of thought process, that sort of thinking, that pattern of thinking led me to a place where I was really closed off and I was not heart open anymore because I had shut down so many or put up so many walls, shut down, closed so many doors, and then it was tons of work to open it again. Like how can I be soft, open, loving and have discernment and find my choice? So there are messy parts for us. We have a starting point, we have a place we want to go, where we think freedom lives, and usually before we get to where freedom lives, we're in this discomfort, but the discomfort is part of the work. It's us in it. We are, with the friction, sort of polishing our own stone. We think about freedom. It's not really about doing whatever you want, it's about having choice.

Speaker 1: 8:38

Brenda so gorgeously stated she really wanted to live with more desire. I wanted to definitely live with more peace. Freedom is the ability for us to respond to life based on our reality instead of our wounds, to respond to life from a place of our values instead of our conditioning. So, for example, I was very much, or have been, a person of acts of service or very generous and gift giving. So if I'm someone who's living for my values, I started to learn how to, instead of buying everybody something for Christmas that I know because that's what you air quotes to you. That was part of my conditioning Starting to ask myself who do I actually want to buy something for. That changed my whole Christmas shopping habits. I changed from getting adult things to only children. It helped my pocket. I wasn't spending two plus K a Christmas season. I was getting to really honor my values, which is I love to see children thriving. We're just excited.

Speaker 1: 9:52

I think that's a time in our life where we get to be kids, like that's the time where we have that false sense of freedom and I want to definitely contribute to that false sense of freedom and just having a great time versus the wounded part or the conditioned part of this is what I have to do, because this is how we do it, this is how we do it in our family, or this is how we do it in our friend group. This is how we do it. Or I don't buy name brand things because, well, I don't think that I'm in the financial bracket to do that. I don't think I've ever really been there. It doesn't make sense to me.

Speaker 1: 10:38

And there was a time where I would say but I could technically air quotes afford the Chanel bag, or I could air quotes afford Louis Vuitton bag, or I could air quotes afford the Louis Vuitton bag. But now, when I live in my values, it's like where would I wear that diamond necklace? Like I'm not at galas. I don't go to black tie events. What am I doing with this stuff? It would just be in my closet. For what? Like I'm not Real Housewives of New York. It's like who are you and how do you live into your values? Versus your conditioning versus the conditioning. Even now. I'm just taking it a step further. It's not just conditioning of family and friends, but also media, television, et cetera. Friend is just looking at me, brenda's just looking at me.

Speaker 2: 11:30

I'm just thinking about what gala I can invite you to so you can wear your diamond necklace. Yeah, this is really great. I mean, goodness, I used to say yes to everything Not really everything, but I used to say yes to a lot of things. I used to spend a ton of money. I used to do retail therapy. I was just always shopping and buying things. On my way home from teaching. I would stop at the local Italian market and buy all the goodies. I was just spending a lot of money, but it was all wonderful, but it was not satisfying. I would go to Nordstrom and I would buy talk about designer clothes. I would just buy a bunch of stuff and I would come home and it would feel really great, also stopping at the market on the way home, going out to eat, just spending a lot of money, and it was just never satisfying. Once I wore the clothes once or twice, I wanted to go shopping again and I was just overspending. I was married at the time and my husband would always be like we need to keep the American Express bill down and I would say okay, but I just didn't. Or maybe I would do it for a little bit, but mostly, I don't think I did. I don't think either one of us really did and yeah, it was fun but it was wasteful. It was a hungry ghost. It was something that could never really satisfy me to the core me to the core and I'm so thoughtful with my finances now.

Speaker 2: 13:12

I love to spend money. I really do. I love spending money. I love buying people presents. I just drove cross country and I got presents for my kids and for some some little kids, a few people.

Speaker 2: 13:26

I didn't get presents for everyone, like you said.

Speaker 2: 13:28

I think the old me would have been like I need to buy presents for everybody, every single person I know, and I need like an extra carload of stuff just for the stuff.

Speaker 2: 13:38

Now it's like what actually sparks me, who do I want to buy presents for, for, and what is my actual capacity to spend money on gifts, what feels good, what's responsible, and I feel really great about the presence that I got and the way that I spend money.

Speaker 2: 14:05

Now I really think about where do I want to put my energy, my time, my energy and my finances, because those are our resources and to me, that's freedom, like really being mindful about where I put those three things my time, my energy and my money, and it's not just going to a craft fair or the mall or even a wonderful farmer's market and blowing hundreds of dollars. While that's really fun and, yes, I can justify it it's wonderful and healthy and I'm going to make all kinds of soups and soups, but it doesn't actually feel good to do that, and so I'm really thoughtful about where do I spend my money, and so I'm really thoughtful about where do I spend my money, and that, to me, is freedom. It's complete freedom, where I think I used to feel like the freedom was just in buying whatever I wanted whenever I wanted, and that was definitely false.

Speaker 1: 15:03

Freedom is definitely connected to choice.

Speaker 1: 15:07

You're having me think of the saying I don't want to be on a diet because I want to be able to eat whatever I want. One of my teachers is talking to a student, and so he asked the student if there were a cake or cookies or some form of a treat, or even pizza, would you be able to not eat it? And they're like well, I would want to eat it. Like, I want to be free to eat it. He's like, but would you be able to not eat it? In other words, unless you can say yes or no to something and it be value neutral either way, like yes, you're going to have an affinity for one, but you have to be able it has to be within your capacity to choose either or, and that's when there's freedom. So what I hear you saying, brenda, is oh, you do like to spend money. That is a very comfortable go-to, and now you have so much more discernment around it and you can pause and ask yourself what's going to feel good, what do I really want to do and what's within my capacity. So there's so much choice and so much thought around it. It's just not like willy-nilly reactive for me. If I'm thinking about my own example, my own boundary settings, let's say, christmas, part of the things I had to work through were can I feel comfortable going to an event and, let's say, one year I didn't have it? Can I just not buy it? Can I be the person that just didn't buy gifts? And how big that felt at the time, like all the guilt and all the shame that comes up and working through that. And then, once I was able to work through that, there's so much more freedom around it, like this. Past Christmas was a good Christmas. I was able to, like, send some gifts for kids and things like that that are in my family, and it felt really nice to do and it came from a place of really wanting to and being able to, versus the rules that I had created a few years back where, okay, no adults and yes kids, but even that I took it further. It's not just okay, no adults and yes kids, but even that I took it further. It's not just yes kids just because yes kids. It's like, yes kids, and can I, like you said, is it within the realm of my capacity and do I actually want to? And so, ultimately, what we're talking about right now is freedom isn't just doing whatever you want.

Speaker 1: 17:48

Ultimately, what we're talking about right now is freedom, isn't just doing whatever you want. And even when we think we want to just do whatever we want, it's sort of like the thing we say but it's not really whatever we want, it's what we want because we don't want anything else. That is the compulsion. We want that and we want it in this way, in this form, and we want to feel free to do it. Like I deserve to go on vacation. Yes, I'll have to charge it and I have to go into debt for it, but I deserve to have it. Right.

Speaker 1: 18:22

That sort of versus what's actually within capacity, what's actually within my values and how can I prepare for this. If vacation is the thing, how can I discern and how can I prepare myself for that? Does that mean that I'm meditating twice a day Like what am I doing for myself on a day-to-day to handle the rest that is required currently, because I'm like air quotes saying vacation, or is it something else? Like the discernment piece, the being able to be with what's actually happening with you, is really important. Amen.

Speaker 2: 19:03

You know, it just came to me. When you're talking, it's a slightly different topic, but all in the idea of freedom, when you're talking about freedom is choice. So I'm thinking about people with their phones and how people think, just because the phone rings, that they have to answer it, and that I think was always true when people had phones on the walls. Remember the days of phones on the wall with a wire, the good old days. But with the phones now in your pocket, oh my goodness. I don't know if people's phones ring so much. But texts, people think you have to answer the phone when it rings and you have to answer your texts and you have to look at your notifications on social media, and I think people feel victimized by this, like underneath it, like there's no choice, and I think it really interferes with people's lives because you don't.

Speaker 2: 19:59

I think real freedom with my phone and honoring my phone as part of my life, not as my life, that it runs my life the freedom for me is putting my phone down, not opening texts if I don't have the capacity to open them. That is not something that I used to be able to do. I used to just open all the texts and then get completely overloaded, thinking I had to respond to everything, read everything and respond to it. Wow, that is the opposite of freedom. That's just literally feeling controlled by a device in your pocket which feels horrible.

Speaker 2: 20:43

And then, when you do that, people even around me who were just on their phones and distracted they're not present. It doesn't feel good to be around and the alternate is a lot of freedom, like, oh, this is a tool in my life, not something that controls me, but something that I actually have boundaries around and I no longer answer texts just because they're there. I don't always answer the phone when it rings, except when it's my kids, not 100% of the time, depending on what's going on, but that, to me, is freedom with the phone. I think that's a place where a lot of people are not feeling free right now. It's really of people are not feeling free right now. It's really it's just. On. The other side of this is choice and just the awareness that you don't have to pick it up, you don't have to read it.

Speaker 1: 21:35

Yes, and the messy piece in this it's an example that you're bringing, I love this example, it's so true is some people go through like social media detox, right, they take their apps off their phone. I personally put my phone down around 9 pm every day. Will people text me? Yeah, are people calling me? Yes, am I awake sometimes after that? Absolutely, but I have to sort of forcefully put it down because I won't be able to have my phone on me as I'm doing other things reading, writing, whatever and not want to look at it. So I'm at a choice point yes, because the choice is all right, this is the rule. Phone comes down, but I'm not at a choice point where it will be on me and I won't look at it time to time. And so the messy part before we are at full choice and the ability of having something and not wanting to be pulled by or not actually being pulled by, it is okay. What are little snippets? Maybe I put my phone down or maybe I don't. I think Brenda has a very strong morning practice where she doesn't look at her phone. I don't have such a strong morning practice Like where can you be free?

Speaker 1: 22:48

Or can you start to implement some discernment and some awareness so that you could have a little bit more choice. So, hopefully, with everything that we've talked about today, we want to leave you with the thought of, like, what is freedom to you? Where are you feeling less free? Where are the places that you feel really free to do air quotes whatever you want? And is that really true? Is it when you say I want to do whatever I want, does that mean that you're just free to do and not do? Or are you just using that as a blanket permission slip and it's more of a compulsion and it's more of a have to? But we're labeling it. Oh, I love to do whatever I want. I'm ground, I get to do whatever I want, but it's actually. I have no other choice, because this is what's really calling me. Let us know what you thought, let us know your thoughts on freedom. We'd love to hear from you. That's a wrap. Bye for now.

Speaker 1: 23:59

Thank you for joining us on the Desire is Medicine podcast Desire invites us to be honest, loving and deeply intimate with ourselves and others. You can find our handles in the show notes. We'd love to hear from you.