121 ~ Obligation vs Desire: How to Stop Self Abandonment During the Holidays

The calendar fills. Group chats buzz. The season starts to feel like a performance instead of a celebration. In this episode, we pause to name what drains our joy this time of year: Obligation.

We explore how obligation shows up as invisible labor, full of emotional management, and conditioned yes responses. A tight chest. Shallow breath. Subtle self abandonment. We talk about how resentment builds and how to notice the signs early.

We speak honestly about conditioning, especially for women taught to nurture first. Beneath the doing often sits a simple desire for connection, recognition, or belonging. When those needs get chased through overspending or over functioning, disappointment follows. We reframe responsibility with small children as a values based choice rather than a life ruled by musts. We also name the line between loving care and scorekeeping. Using Byron Katie’s question, Is it true?, we separate facts from stories so decisions stop running on guilt and habit.

Then we move into the body. A true yes feels open and breathable. A no feels compressed or heavy. We share fast somatic resets like a short walk, a stretch, or a song that brings you back into your hips so clarity returns quickly. We offer scripts to enroll help without control. Appreciate the effort. Name the help you want. Repeat. Done and not done by me becomes the seasonal mantra.

We close with a reimagining of tradition. Fewer tasks. More presence. Boundaries that stay clear and kind.

Episode Highlights

• naming obligation energy and self abandonment
 • separating facts from stories using Byron Katie’s question
 • recognizing body cues for yes and no
 • unpacking conditioning and invisible labor
 • reframing responsibility with small children
 • enrolling help through clear requests and repetition
 • simplifying gifts and traditions for connection
 • somatic resets to stop pushing through
 • practical checkpoints before saying yes
 • setting boundaries without guilt

Share this episode with someone who needs permission to say a clean no. You can find our handles in the show notes. We'd love to hear from you.

Chapters

• 1:48 Holidays Bring Obligation To The Surface
• 3:30 Defining Obligation Vs Desire
• 5:21 The Cost Of Self Abandonment
• 7:42 Body Signals And Byron Katie’s Question
• 10:45 Conditioning, Nurturing, And Hidden Expectations
• 14:35 Gifts, Connection, And Rewriting Traditions
• 18:05 Enrolling Help Instead Of Forcing
• 21:12 Responsibility With Kids Vs Obligation
• 24:05 Expectations, Resentment, And Clear Wants
• 27:05 Hitting A Wall And Somatic Resets
• 30:04 Practical Checkpoints For A True Yes
• 33:35 Closing Reflections And Holiday Intentions

Transcript

SPEAKER_01: 0:07

Welcome to Desire is Medicine. We are two very different women living a life led by desire, inviting you into our world.

SPEAKER_00: 0:16

I'm Brenda. I'm a devoted practitioner to being my fully expressed true self in my daily life, motherhood, relationships, and my business. Desire has taken me on quite a ride, and every day I practice listening to and following the voice within. I'm a middle school teacher, turned coach and guide of the feminine.

SPEAKER_01: 0:36

And I'm Catherine, devoted to living my life as the truest and hopefully the highest version of me. I don't have children, I've never been married, I've spent equal parts of my life in corporate as in some down and low shady spaces. I was the epitome of Tired and Wired, and my path led me to explore desire. I'm a coach, guide, energy worker, and a forever student.

SPEAKER_00: 0:58

Even after decades of inner work, we are humble beginners, on the mat, still exploring, always curious. We believe that listening to and following the nudge of desire is a deep spiritual practice that helps us grow.

SPEAKER_01: 1:12

On the Desire is Medicine podcast, we talk to each other, we interview people we know and love about the practice of desire, bringing in a very important piece that is often overlooked. Being responsible for our desire. Hello, family, friends, listeners. Welcome back to another episode. Another episode. Here we are. I'm with Brenda, as always, on the Desire as Medicine podcast. Super excited to talk about what we're going to talk about today. We've talked about this in the past from different angles. And as the holidays are upon us, here we are. We have already surpassed Thanksgiving, our time to reflect and think about some gratitude. And we are about to go into Christmas, Hanukkah, etc., etc. New Year's. And during these times, we have things that pop up. Like right now in my building, I have some kind of drilling happening that sounds like it they're drilling into my brain. So if I get lost, it's because I feel like they're drilling in my brain. I don't really have a workaround for this yet. Brenda and I will have to figure this part out. But until then, you maybe hear some buzzing today. Okay, back to the episode. Obligation, where we have our true yes and our no. And how do we work around this during the holidays? Right? If we are just asking ourselves, what do I want? Let me tell you, it's really hard for desire to get through when you're just like stuck on obligation. You can ask yourself, what do I want, but you're too busy thinking, oh, this is the right thing to do, or this is what I always do. Like obligation is almost acting from autopilot, it's not desire, right? So if we're not really sober around that, like if we have any sort of, I don't know, I need to do this, I have to do this, I should do that. You can't really hear your desire. And the more and more that we walk away from what we want so that we do what we think is right to do, and I think caveat is parents, right? Because I think as a parent, and I'll let Brenda speak to that, you want to probably do things for your kids and make sure that your kids have a really nice holiday. So maybe in that instance, desire is and obligation are slightly different. But you I don't know how you land on what you want when you're always doing what you have to do. There is this ticking of abandoning yourself so many times along the way. What has been your experience of that part, Brenda?

SPEAKER_00: 4:21

Wow. Obligation is such a killer. It's like a life force killer. And yet I think we all do it in our own way. I know I've done it, and a lot of women that I work with are stuck in obligation. And sometimes it's really hard to see because what you feel obligated to do feels so real. And maybe you've seen your family do it or the women before you in obligation. And you feel like, oh, this is just the way it's supposed to be. You don't even realize that you're in obligation energy. You're like, what? You don't even realize that there's an option. And that's why we're talking about this. There might be a time of wake up. There has to be some kind of a cost or some kind of pain. Like this gets so heavy and so difficult to keep doing this thing that you're doing. Like the price gets really high, like you're absolutely miserable, or you become a raving bitch because you're doing things that you really don't want to do. Where there's some wake-up where you're like, wow, I just don't want to do this anymore, or you're willing to look at it. And until then, it's very easy to be stuck in obligation energy. We we have rewards and payoffs when we are doing things out of obligation. We're we're really self-abandoning. The payoff is different for everyone. When we're in obligation energy, we're more invested in pleasing others and doing what we feel we're supposed to do rather than doing what's truly best for us or for our families.

SPEAKER_01: 6:13

When uh you're doing what's best for your families, um, it makes sense when your kids are little, right? When they're maybe, I don't know, from ages zero to seven or eight before they have their like little personalities and opinions, because at that point they also have to learn how to be in community and connection and that it's not just about them, right? But if you can put bring yourself back to that time and the times that you potentially abandon yourself because of obligation, can you name the things that would happen for you? Like, could you feel it in your body? Did you have tightening heaviness, like resentment, or like feel like you had to rush to say yes? Like what was happening for you physically?

SPEAKER_00: 7:01

Yeah, I think it, I think it's what first came up for me is rage, like anger and rage and complete frustration. Like the opposite of joy, satisfaction, and fulfillment, because you're overriding yourself. You're overriding your capacity, you're overriding your true yes and no, you're overriding your desire. Like those things don't even exist because you feel like you just have to do this and you have to do that, and you have to go to work every single day, no matter what. You have to do all the laundry every day, have to empty the dishwasher every day. You have to do these things every day. And you're a big Byron Katie fan. You know, she always asks this great question. Is that true? Is it true that you have to do these things? And sometimes we're so stuck in that energy of obligation that it's like, yeah, yeah, it's true that I have to do laundry every day. And I've had clients tell me that. And it's a conundrum because what if you don't do the laundry every day? But for me, it's like, you know, you ask that question, what was it like for me? It feels tight in my body. I felt like I couldn't breathe. But I think the biggest cost when I was doing things out of obligation is the frustration. And that frustration has to come out somehow. Like I would internalize it and then it would come out in me being short with people, reactive and kind of like a bitch. Like I don't have patience. You don't have patience for things, and then you expect other people to do out things out of obligation too. Well, if I could do this, then you should do that too. And you're just passing it on to the next person or to your kids. It's a downward spiral. Yes.

SPEAKER_01: 8:59

I can't really hear upswing. I wasn't expecting for you to say right, but it makes a lot of sense.

SPEAKER_00: 9:07

Yeah, that's the first thing that I feel when you ask that question. My first thought was, wow, I'm really pissed off. I mean, women are pissed off. Don't you think? Don't you think women are generally pissed off?

SPEAKER_01: 9:21

I don't know which one came first. You know, there's so many things for me to touch on. I'm sort of going to do a little bit of rapid fire. Yes, I am a very huge Byron Katie fan, predominantly because I have a fairly logical mind in the way I'm pretty grounded, very earthy sign. And in the beginning of my work, I used to think everything was a fact. So for me, everything was true. Like it was very hard for me to sift through separate fact from story. I'm so much better at it now. I think it's just tons of practice. Before I the the the thought that's coming to mind is uh something simple, like I woke up late. It's somewhat factual. You have a particular time that you were thinking of waking up, you wake up at a time after that. But if you want to get more factual, it's I woke up at X time today, right? The late is the story. But that was so hard for me to put my finger on because it was like, but that's what happened. How do you separate fact from story? So, yes, very big on Byron Katie, love her work, gave me tons and tons of sanity and really helped me sift through what's true and what's not true. Then when I think about rage or obligation, how it feels in my body. And I hear you say, Well, women, they just have this rage. I'm like, is it conditioning? Is it that we are just led to believe that we're nurturing people and that if we nurture, well, then that means everybody's needs come before us, andor so much more. I think there's just conditioning and advertisement and marketing and PR stunts from all different angles and corners. And at the same time, it is true that women are nurturers and that for the most part, we do have and care for someone somewhere, and their needs do matter, right? But they matter when they're like little humans, not when you're surrounded by adults. And adults technically can take care of themselves. So the thought that comes up for me when you say women are pissed off. Did you see that movie with Michelle Pfeiffer? It's recent. Her children forget her, her children and her husband forget her in the house. It's like funny. It's like, you know, can't really give it a scale of one to five. Maybe on the star scale, maybe I'd give it like three stars. So some of it was funny, and some of it was like, hmm. But yeah, that is sort of the norm. The holidays come and the women of the house are doing everything and used to doing everything. And they want something. And that's the thing that we don't often talk about. The thing that's underneath the doing of all the things, because we as women want something in return, whether it's a thank you, you're amazing, recognition, having your family want to be there, or having your family want to spend time with you, having your family together. Maybe there's some identity there. And yes, I can see women being pissed if you abandon yourself at every corner in order to have this thing that you think you're gonna get by being an obligation and then realizing, oh, nobody's giving me the flowers or the accolades that I wanted from this. I'm not getting the thing that I wanted. This isn't fair. Like the the feeling is this is not fair. I did all of this and I'm not getting what I want. And I think there are there's a different way to do it. It doesn't have to be that way.

SPEAKER_00: 13:40

What would be the different way?

SPEAKER_01: 13:42

I think enrolling people, right? A different way potentially would be asking, I'd have to first get to know what I actually want to do. Because then all the extra things I would have to delegate or enroll or figure something out. So I can only use my limited examples, but in my early 20s, I remember I used to do tons and tons of gift giving. And uh the thousands at Christmas was just insane. I think about it now. I'm like, I could have funded my fire retirement with that, those actions. What in the world was I thinking? So insane, you know, like the clothes or the the gifts, just the the act of kindness, wanting to light someone up. But let's be honest, short of your significant other, maybe your children that give you a list, now we get it on Amazon, which is, I guess, pretty cool. Maybe not so cool for people that want to only support small businesses, but in itself, getting a list where you can just click and buy, I think that's pretty cool. I used to do that. And then one day I was like, what is it that I've been wanting? Oh, I've been wanting a sense of connection. I've been wanting to feel like I'm part of this bigger tribe. What's actually true? What's actually happening? Oh, all that's happening is that I'm spending a lot of money on Christmas. That's what anything. All I can do is laugh at that part of me. And then I had completely, you know, there's the pendulum swing that we talk about. It completely retracted and just wasn't giving any gifts. And then every once in a while, depending on the year and how much money I've made, I only give gifts to children. Um, because I think they're the ones that really enjoy it. Like, have you ever seen a kid open a gift? It's so fun.

SPEAKER_00: 15:48

They're so excited. It's the best. Did you ever see that video of the kid who opens the avocado? His parents wrap in wrapping paper an avocado, and they give this kid the avocado and he opens it. It's this viral video on YouTube. And he's like, an avocado. He's like so excited. He's just like, you gave him gold. It's the best video. And I hope I'm telling the story correctly.

SPEAKER_01: 16:17

You are, but I've seen kids open gifts in a box, and then they jump in the box, and they're just so excited for the box. It's not even the best.

SPEAKER_00: 16:27

It's the best thing. It's the best. And then we get so much joy as adults watching that. It's so much fun. And I love what you're pointing to here that there's a desire that we have as women. There's something that we want. And you said you bought presents for everyone, overspending because you wanted that connection. It goes back to what you said before that we're nurturers and we're creatrixes. We want to create something. We are natural creators. And we don't always know how to do it. We don't know how to create it. And we don't know how to get everyone on board. I know that was probably one of my biggest struggles as a mother growing up with my kids. I learned so much about that the hard way. How do you get other people, your kids, your spouse, your family, to quote, do what you want. Or get them on your ride. That's the more fun part. Like you have this ride, you have this idea. How do you magnetize people to it is really maybe the more exalted way to say it, the less obligation way to say it. Otherwise, you could be just pulling teeth and getting people to do things that they don't actually want to do. And you said, how do you enroll people? It requires a really big slowing down, talking to people every step of the way, sharing your vision, hearing other people's visions. What do people actually want to show up for? And then can you accept that and then and then move forward from there? But I don't I don't think that people are generally doing that.

SPEAKER_01: 18:24

No, we're ready for the rage room.

SPEAKER_00: 18:27

Yeah, and the race room. It's so quick. It comes back to obligation and how we set up our lives. Our lives are just not necessarily set up to have these kinds of conversations. Generally, most women and mothers are barking at their spouses or their children to empty the dishwasher, clean the room, vacuum, or fuck it. I'm just gonna do it all myself. It's way easier. And that's a real pain point for a lot of women. I'm just gonna do it myself. And then you kind of make everyone around you really dumb.

SPEAKER_01: 19:09

I mean dumb because we're treating them as if they can't do it, not really looking at the fact that we haven't been able to enroll them. Exactly. So they're clearly not capable because they're not doing it.

SPEAKER_00: 19:21

Exactly. It's a tricky spot. And you said before that with kids, there's a it's a different situation than with adults. Like with adults, adults can take care of themselves. But I don't think that many adults believe that about other adults. I don't think that most adults walking around are like, oh, I don't need to take care of this person. They can take care of themselves. No, most people are like, oh, I need to do everything because they're stupid or incapable or they do it wrong. That's such a huge one for women. He does it wrong. And so I'm just gonna do it myself. And then you create your own reality. And you're doing all these things out of obligation. It feels like shit.

SPEAKER_01: 20:01

Done and not done by me is the best, especially when I've a you know attempted or I've asked for help. You could always tweak it, like tell someone thank you so much for doing this, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I would really love it if you could have da-da-da-da, whatever, you know. Um, and I think it's it's also it has a lifespan, I want to call it. Like there's an if if this is happening with your significant other, your children, you know that every time you invest in telling them exactly how you want it, as if it's the first time, you're getting closer and closer to having it the way you want it. Because there are just so many. Some people are like, oh, I have to say it again. I'm like, yes, but you're one, say it again closer to having it how you want it.

SPEAKER_00: 20:48

I hope so. We have whole episodes on it. Actually, those are some of our most popular episodes. People freaking love those episodes. And we did two of them. We did How to Ask for What You Want, and then we did a toolbox also, How to Ask for What You Want. So definitely go back and look at that. And I also want to go back to something you said earlier about obligation as parents with little kids. You could look at things from an obligation standpoint, but I like to think of it as responsibility. You have a child, you have a responsibility. You could look at it as obligation, but I think that there's a responsibility that we have as parents to do things for our kids. And it's not always convenient. We don't always get to say, well, this isn't an alignment for me. It's not an alignment for me to get up in the middle of the night. I need my sleep. No, you don't actually have a choice. You have to get up in the middle of the night and take care of your child if they're sick or crying or whatever it is. And that's a value system. Not everyone has that value system. Some people just gonna let their kid cry, but I think that when our children are really little, we put some of our needs aside and put our children first. And I don't know that that's obligation. I think that's a deep sense of responsibility that we have for bringing our children into the world. You could certainly argue it's obligation. And I'm sure people feel like it's obligation, but I think it's actually a beautiful privilege to create something and nurture it and take care of it. And I'm not saying it feels like that, people, in the middle of the night, or when you're doing laundry constantly or you have to cook constantly. And that's why there's so many tendrils to this conversation. Like, how do we ask for help? What do we actually, what are we capable of doing? What can we put down so that we do have more energy for these other things? And that changes over time as well.

SPEAKER_01: 22:58

So, what would you say in that context is the difference between a parent who thinks it's obligation or a parent who sees it just as their responsibility? Like I know what comes to mind for me, but the only definition that I could really think of is sort of a hindsight definition. Um, so I'm curious to know if something pops up for you when you think of a parent of younger children one through eight, and what's the difference for that parent between obligation and responsibility? Would you say it's perception or something else?

SPEAKER_00: 23:36

I would 100% say it's perception. I really would. Yeah, I think it's just that simple. There's so much more to it, like what I was pointing to before about being fully resourced, and we have an episode on that as well. How, how do you resource yourself so that you can show up for your responsibilities? Because children are not an obligation. If you're looking at your children as an obligation, I just think you're in a mindset that's going to, you're gonna feel victimized by that. And you're gonna feel resentful. It's not a it's not an expansive mindset. And we might be there sometimes. I'm not saying that you know, you don't ever feel like that, but as a whole, I don't think that it's very expansive. It's limited.

SPEAKER_01: 24:29

When I say the thought is that comes up for me as hindsight in the definition, is because I have, especially in my coaching practice, spoken to tons of women that look back at their children's younger years and it comes across as obligation because their kids didn't turn out to be the kinds of kids that are repaying the parent in a way that they wanted. And so when I think of responsibility for children one through eight, like little, or let's call it one through 13, even, right? Because they're teenagers, that's when they start to act a little cuckoo, rebellious. But in that stage, there's a certain responsibility that a parent has, both parents, this is not specific to women, cooking, cleaning, make sure they're fed, that they're able to sleep, they have a roof over their head, right? But if there's any place where you're doing this because you think that when you get older, they'll take care of you. Or when you get older, they'll take over the holidays and you'll be a guest, or anything like that, where it becomes commerce. I do this, you do that, or tit for a tat. Oof, that is a path for a lot of disappointment from what I see. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00: 25:56

And we see this a lot. What do we say? Expectation is premeditated resentment. It's not great.

SPEAKER_01: 26:07

So back to the medicine, back to the anecdote, is when we pause to think of what is it that I do want? Out of all of these obligations, air quotes, right? If we without sifting through them and deciding what is an obligation and what's responsibility, if I can just be with what do I truly enjoy doing during the holidays? Is it spending time with my sister, my brother, my parents, my cousins? Is it going to see, if you're in New York, going to see the tree, if you are somewhere in the colder states of the United States? Do you want to go skiing? Like, what is it that you truly enjoy? What is it that you actually want feeling into that while you're looking at all the lists of the things and then seeing all the things that you don't like? Like, what can we do about those? Can we enroll someone to help us? Can we do our best to not be in resentment? Right? Like, where can we be so much more intentional? Where can we look at these old roles, these identities we used to have and never question? Can we question them? And so right now we're talking about obligation from the standpoint of I want to do these things because I secretly want to reap these benefits, wink wink. But what about when we engage in obligations for other reasons? Because we don't want, we fear disconnection, we're afraid of the conflict, or maybe we feel like it's not safe for whatever reason, right? Just like it's really hard to hear your desire when your body feels tight or you're like in resentment, etc. It's really hard to hear your desire when you're in fear. Like sometimes that fear even keeps us from making a decision. So now I'm gonna bring it to today, Brenda and I. We got together, we were, this is a great example. We were getting ready to record, and we did a few things before recording, and then we just like hit a wall where we would be pushing. And so instead of pushing through and forcing something, we were like, all right, it's time to take a break. What are we gonna do? And we did we chose to lean into our somatics. So Brenda went and danced at Koya. I'll let her tell you a little bit about that. And I paused, I made myself like a little tea drink that has some caffeine in it, and I went for a walk. It wasn't a big deal, it wasn't a long time, it was like 15 minutes, but I felt so much more grounded and so much more in my own space. Sometimes we can get away from ourselves and our desires. Not obligation is one way, but sometimes we just get trapped in noise and shoulds. How was KOIA for you when like we paused today and we're like, okay, we hit a wall. Let's just not push through because we have to record. It's not going to be from an obligatory place, but you got to dance it out. How was that for you?

SPEAKER_00: 29:47

It was amazing. I love KOI. Koya isn't a movement practice that I teach. You could check it out on my Instagram. And it feels great. The whole idea of KOI is that we remember that we are like nature, wise, wild, and free. We are ever-changing. And things can get stuck in our bodies, especially when we're stuck in our minds and we kind of hit a wall. So getting out of my head and into my body felt great. And today I just did some stretching. Put some music on, did some stretching, creating space in your body, living in your body is like the antidote to obligation. And it comes back to something you mentioned earlier, Catherine, which is practice. Like we get to practice this. Like if you're listening to this and you're thinking, oh my God, I'm really doing a lot of things out of obligation. Well, it's great that you notice that. And then you just practice. You just practice. And what we did is a great example. We noticed we hit a wall. You were willing to name it. I was willing to say, yep, you're right. And we didn't need to figure it out. We didn't even need to figure out what the wall was. We just knew we hit a wall. We could both feel it. Let's take a break. Let's pause. And I don't think the world is generally set up that way. But you can create that in your own life. And it feels great because that little bit of a break, that 30 minutes that we took to do our own thing, created space in our own bodies and in our connection to come here and record today. Kudos to us.

SPEAKER_01: 31:35

Kudos, yes. And for those that are listening, and like we named, I named it a wall, but it could be other, they're just physical symptoms. So maybe you feel foggy or you feel your head feels heavy or you feel it's heightening in your physical system somewhere. Maybe you feel some kind of heaviness or resentment or rage or you're just pissed off, you're annoyed. Something just feels like it's rubbing, like some part of life is rubbing on you. And your body's telling you, hey, something's not okay. And you get to be with yourself and say, all right, okay, something's not okay. Am I in obligation? And do I have to be here? Like there might be some real true life things happening that have you be there and maybe not. Uh I would argue that a lot of the times we think we have to be there and that there's no other way. But sometimes, like we mentioned before, we think we have to be there and there's no other way because of conditioning, old roles. We're an autopilot, we're not being intentional. Maybe there's some lack of safety, or we have a fear of some kind, whether it's conflict, disconnection. And those additives make it really hard to stay present. So one of the things that we want to offer you today is when you're thinking about your yes, your no around this idea of obligation during the holidays, you get to pause before answering. You get to check where's your breath? Like, are you even able to breathe fully? Does your body feel open and plush, or do you feel like shut down and closed? And you get to ask yourself like, am I doing this obligatory thing because I I want something? Is there a different way for me to get it? Or am I doing this because I want to avoid something? And will I truly be able to avoid it? Or am I just kicking the can down the road? So, this holiday, we invite you to let your yes mean something. We want you to honor your yes or no and just bring it back to desire. Thank you so much for joining us. It's been a pleasure having you. We want you to be happy and merry no matter what you celebrate. May you remember during this holiday season because we we don't want to just gloss over the fact that holiday seasons can be really difficult outside of obligation, outside of family, outside of presence. It tends to be the time of year where a lot of people just contemplate their life overall. And this is your chance to be with everything that you've gained. With that, we love you. Bye for now.

SPEAKER_00: 34:59

Thank you for joining us on the Desire is Medicine podcast.

SPEAKER_01: 35:03

Desire invites us to be honest, loving, and deeply intimate with ourselves and others. You can find our handles in the show notes. We'd love to hear from you.