152 ~ Your Phone Is Not The Problem

Your phone is not just a tool, it’s a reflex. We catch ourselves reaching for it in the bathroom, at red lights, in elevators, and in the tiny pauses where life used to breathe. So we slow the moment down and ask the question that changes everything: when I pick up my phone, what am I actually looking for? Connection, comfort, validation, entertainment, a micro-escape, or relief from loneliness and uncertainty? 

We talk about the attention economy and how easy it is to slip into habitual pickups, “making the rounds” through apps, and chasing quick dopamine hits that never quite satisfy. We also challenge the myth that being constantly connected equals being close. Access to information and people is not the same as intimacy, and the loop of checking can leave us feeling more scattered, not more supported. 

Then we get practical. We share experiments that help us reclaim focus and nervous system regulation: airplane mode during deep work or recording, putting the phone in another room, testing black-and-white mode, and taking walks with no podcast or music so we can rebuild our tolerance for stillness. If you’ve been craving more presence, more creativity, and more real connection, this conversation gives you a grounded place to start. 

Lets get honest about why we reach for our phones so often and what we are actually searching for in that moment. Constant stimulation affects connection, boredom, creativity, and self-trust. We invite you to engage in some simple experiments to take your attention back. What you notice when you finally put the phone down.

Episode Nuggets:

• reaching for the phone to meet needs like comfort, validation, entertainment, distraction, and escape  

• noticing how “more connection” can still feel like disconnection and a lack of intimacy

• phone pickups as a sign of habit loops and addictive design 

• boredom as a catalyst for creativity, reflection, and self-awareness  

• the hidden costs of scrolling on intimacy, presence, and attention  

• practical boundaries like airplane mode, grayscale, and quiet walks without audio  

Transcript

Welcome And What Desire Means

SPEAKER_00 0:07

Welcome to Desire is Medicine. We are two very different women living a life led by desire, inviting you into our world.

SPEAKER_01 0:16

I'm Brenda. I'm a devoted practitioner to being my fully expressed true self in my daily life, motherhood, relationships, and my business. Desire has taken me on quite a ride, and every day I practice listening to and following the voice within. I'm a middle school teacher, turned coach and guide of the feminine.

SPEAKER_00 0:36

And I'm Catherine, devoted to living my life as the truest and hopefully the highest version of me. I don't have children, I've never been married, I've spent equal parts of my life in corporate as in some down and low shady spaces. I was the epitome of Tired and Wired, and my path led me to explore desire. I'm a coach, guide, energy worker, and a forever student.

SPEAKER_01 0:58

Even after decades of inner work, we are humble beginners, on the mat, still exploring, always curious. We believe that listening to and following the nudge of desire is a deep spiritual practice that helps us grow.

SPEAKER_00 1:12

On the Desire as Medicine podcast, we talk to each other, we interview people we know and love about the practice of desire, bringing in a very important piece that is often overlooked. Being responsible for our desire.

Why We Reach For Phones

SPEAKER_00 1:25

Welcome back, family, friends, listeners. How's it going? Thanks so much for tuning back into the Desire as Medicine podcast. I'm here with the lovely Brenda. Talking to you or bringing something to you that is near and dear to our hearts, and we are hoping that it will be near and dear to yours as well. We've already talked many times about this. I think not in its own episode, but definitely bits and pieces here and there, which is our phones. We've talked about our phones. Putting the phone down. We've talked about that many times. Today we're gonna be talking about like why are we reaching for our phone so often? When you pick up your phone, what are you actually looking for? Is it a specific app? Is it the feeling? Is it habit? Like if we were to look at the phone, like this is the war on attention. I don't know if you're of the age where we used to have Nancy Reagan come on and say, This is your brain, this is your brain on drugs. And maybe two frying eggs on a frying pan. It's like you could see the same thing if you are Generation Xer. Like there is your phone and your brain just becoming mush because we don't exercise our brains in the same way that we used to. It's like our doorway. There was also an advertisement. Like pot was considered the gateway drug. Like our phone is a gateway for something. It is sometimes we is it that we're picking it up because we want to feel more connected? Like who has messaged us, who has called us? Are we picking it up because we want to get distracted from something else? We want it to take our attention of something. Are we picking it up like a binky, like a sucking candy, so that we can have comfort? Are we looking for validation? Did somebody like or comment on something? Are we just looking to be entertained? Are we looking to scroll? Are we looking to escape something? What need am I trying to meet with my phone? Sometimes we want some micro escapes, right? Like we just want today. I want to return something. I'm online, I'll look at my phone. Tons of people are talking about. I don't know if you guys are following the same people that I follow around the poops, but people are bringing their phones into the bathroom and it's like changing how people poop. Because they're sitting on the toilet longer, and your organs are sitting in your pelvic cavity in a specific way. People who are in the elevator, like scrolling, or you're out of red light, which is horrendous, right? Like you're driving a car. It's so you're driving heavy machinery, you're just like checking your text messages. Are we escaping from loneliness, maybe, or trying to? Because I don't know how much the phone can really help with loneliness. Are you just bored? A lot of this is we're just no longer experiencing a lot of pauses that we used to have. We are like filling all of our space. And it lets us ask the question like, what wisdom might emerge if we just stopped filling the space. Sometimes I go out and I'm with my phone, and I will intentionally set a certain amount of time where I'm not looking at it or listening to anything, just walking through the world to experience the world differently, because for the most part I am tethered to something else. I'm gonna pause here because yeah, to see what comes up for Brenda.

The Addiction Loop And Pickups

SPEAKER_01 4:55

I'm enjoying all the 80s references. If you know, you know. This is your brain. This is your brain on phone. And if you don't know, then that's okay. It's real. You know, when you're asking what need are you trying to fill with your phone, connection, comfort, validation, entertainment, escape, check, check, check, check, check. I mean, I think it's like all of all of it at this point. I would say most of us have an addiction to our phone at this point. Like, what is life without a phone? How many people actually go anywhere without their phone or put their phone down? And I know there's a whole movement of people who are doing that. And there's a whole movement now of parents who aren't giving their kids phones at a young age. And then there's whole movements of younger people, teenagers that I've read about, that don't want phones at all. They're going back to the flip phones because they see how invasive it really is. I don't think we were ever meant to be tethered to something like that. And it's like, oh, we're more connected than ever. We have access to more connection and information than ever, but people feel more disconnected than ever. The access to everything isn't the same as intimacy. It's not the same as getting your needs met. And I think that with all the apartness and the separateness that we have, people are craving that human connection. They're craving it. And then it's kind of like a loop. You look for it in your phone and you don't really find it, or you get a temporary fix. It's temporary. You get your fix, you get your quote need met, but it's not really the deeper thing. And then you go back to it again. Our phones have a feature that say how many pickups you have of your phone. Did you ever look at that? Oh, that is confronting. How many times did you pick up your phone today? That is really confronting. You know it's the addictive behavior because you pick up your phone for something. Maybe it's intentional, maybe it's not. Definitely habitual. I've picked up my phone when I don't even mean to. I've picked up my phone right after I put my phone down out of the habit of just picking up my phone, and I like to say I make the rounds. I'm like, oh, I'll check my email, I'll check Facebook, I'll check Instagram, I'll check WhatsApp, I'll check my text messages, see what's going on in town, handle it, respond, put my phone down. And then I've noticed myself five minutes later or two minutes later, pick up my phone again and do the same thing. My God, that's cray cray. It is, it's cray cray. And I think it's way worse than that out there in the wild, wild west. People listening to stuff all day, all night, trying to get connected. I I mean, I think it's a real problem. I think it's a problem that we have in our society because, like any form of technology, it's supposed to supplement our lives. It's supposed to give us something. And like anything, if it takes up too much of our time and space, it becomes unhealthy. We're wired for human connection. And all of these things are super fun and maybe necessary at this point. But I don't know. I I think people are unwell. People are addicted. They have more mental health issues than ever. People are disconnected and sad. We have more violence than ever, more separation than ever. And I think that's this is bigger than the phone. It's like maybe all these forms of technology, but it's a problem.

SPEAKER_00 8:53

I haven't looked at it to that extent. Like when I think about violence or things in the news, I wonder if it's more today or if we just have access to it, if we just have the ability to see more than we have in the past. Because

The Death Of Boredom

SPEAKER_00 9:10

things can spread so quickly. And then based on the algorithm is based on like what we see. I'll share that for me, one of the things that the phone has brought me when I think of like my attention and the phone in that crossroads has been the death of boredom. A lot of artists will say boredom creates creativity, reflection, daydreaming, self-awareness. And with every moment being filled, I've had to practice being bored. Before the phone, because we were born at times when there was no phone. Before the flip phone, there was just well, there was that brick phone that looked like a brick, but before that, there were no phones. Not for the everyday person, really. And I always had my time filled with something. Then phones came in, flip phones, regular phones. And I've had a coach who gave me. I remember my mom had a saying which was if I ever told her I was bored, she would say, There's no such thing as being bored, there's just boring people. So I did my very best to not be bored. Not realizing that boredom has something on the other side of it. And so I had to learn how to do that. And that meant creating empty space with nothing entertaining me. Just being there and seeing what do I want to do with this empty space. Am I looking to pick up my phone? Is it that I want to know if such and such texts me? Am I wanting to call someone? Like, what do I want to do and what what am I looking to fill this space with? So for me, one of the biggest things that the phone did was bring the death of boredom, but mostly because prior to that, I just filled the space. I was always I always had space filled, so boredom wasn't available. But then I didn't have to fill the space because if there was any space, I could just pick up my phone. And then the thought of, okay, the death of boredom. But then am I able to be present if I'm always wanting to consume what's on my phone? Like the consumption is real. You were talking about, you know, putting your phone down and then picking it up. I would say that what has happened to me many times is let's say, oh, I need this thing. I'm gonna go on Amazon because I need to put it in my cart. Just for example, I get on my phone. Let's say there's a text message. Now I'm answering text messages. Now I looked at my email. Now a different text came through. Now a phone call came through. Now I listened to a voicemail. And I never went to Amazon. Like I didn't get there. I put the phone down and then I'm like, oh crap, I needed the light bulb. Now I gotta go back on Amazon so I can go get the light bulb. Yes, I forgot to do it the first time. I spent 15, 20 minutes on my phone doing all these other things and not the thing that I said that I wanted to do. So now one of the things that I'm practicing is uh in order to be more intentional, I guess to have more intentional attention on my phone is to put my phone on airplane mode. That's a whole mind F. Like, I don't even know how to the amount of times I want to pick it up to see what's happening. It's like, no, Catherine, you are not the president. Leave the phone alone. You don't handle war, like it's fine. I'm neither president nor brain surgeon. Like I do not need to be picking up my phone that often. So today, for example, we're recording and my phone is in another room, airplane mode. Because I'm practicing just being here with you, my attention on you, on us, on what we're creating. And I'm Generation X, I don't know what it feels like for Generation Z. Like I have something to compare it to. I remember filling my space, not being bored with other things that didn't include a phone. I have that lived experience. I can only imagine what it's like for others that don't have that lived experience. Like you have nothing to compare it to. And so even though I am picking up my phone, maybe because I don't want to, you know, I want to relieve myself from anxiousness or loneliness or uncertainty or some kind of discomfort. I don't really think the phone is helping. I think the degree of dopamine hits that the phone gives me is probably contributing to stress or cortisol rays or other. It only would make sense that it does. Now, if I was the creator of Apple or Android, I would think this outcome is awesome. I'd be like, I have a product that everybody uses, even when they go to the toilet. Like I would be like, oh my God, I'm gonna be rich forever. This is amazing. But as a consumer, I'm like, oh, I don't think the phone itself is dangerous, but I definitely think that I could use it less as a weapon against myself

The Hidden Cost Of Scrolling

SPEAKER_00 14:00

because there's a cost. I know it's really easy to see that chart that you were talking about, like on the phone and see how many times did I pick it up or how many hours was I on the in this app, that app. But is there a way for me to really calculate the cost of intimacy that it's costing me or creativity? Because I was talking about how boredom is the catalyst for creativity. But if I'm not allowed myself to be bored, bored, then I'm the cost is creativity. One of the costs. If I am in relationship with other people and we're all together and I'm checking my phone, then it's costing me intimacy. If I'm trying to watch a show and I'm looking at my phone, then I'm not really watching the show. It's costing me like the attention of the thing that I'm looking to be entertained by. If I'm with other people and what I wanted was connection and I pick up my phone, then it's costing me connection. Like we're not really thinking about the cost in that way as much because we're not thinking, oh, when I pick up my phone, there's an opportunity that I'm missing out on. Ooh, that's so good.

SPEAKER_01 15:04

I love that. If I make the rounds, what am I missing? One of the things that really had me put my phone down more, and it's a constant thought of how am I going to do this. And airplane mode is a great one. I know someone who puts her phone on black and white mode. Because if your phone is on black and white mode, it's actually has less addictive qualities. And so you're just go to your phone less. You're just drawn to it less. It becomes less interesting. That I tried to. But what actually had me when phones first came out, like smartphones where we're on the internet, my kids were teenagers, and they used to complain that I had my face in my phone because I was texting. I'm like, this is so much fun. Emojis and texting and group threads. It was like in the middle of my spiritual awakening, the beginning, and I was connected and having a great time. And they would notice that. That is what had me put my phone down because my kids actually pointed it out. And thank God they did. I'm not going to say I put it down immediately. I didn't. I was so consumed because I was so starving. I was so starving for this kind of connection that I was suddenly getting that I did have my face in my phone. I would like to try to sneak it. But they noticed because they're smart. But over time, that is the thing that had me put my phone down. And now that is actually my living amends when I'm around them. I don't go on my phone. Unless it's phone time. Unless we're all just hanging out going on our phones. That's a different thing. But you really touched on some great things, Catherine. I mean, the death of boredom, my God, that is so good. And I feel that one too. And the problem with that, there's so many issues with that. But I think that when we're not constantly entertained in some form or occupied, there's an emptiness that we don't know what to do with. Feelings might come up, and then suddenly you have a problem that you don't know how to deal with, or you have feelings that you're like, oh, this feels weird. It's like an emptiness. And then it feels like something's wrong. And you don't really have skill necessarily to attend to that or any perspective on what it might be. And so you go back on your phone. And so there's not an immediate reward for going off of your phone if you're having that experience. You have to have a lot of discernment. Like a lot of discernment when your favorite cookies are sitting on the counter smelling fresh to not eat the whole plate. Is like that same discernment, that calling from within to not constantly be on your phone. This is something that we deal with as humans, boundaries with ourselves. So it's like, yeah, it's about the phone, but it's also not about the phone. It's ultimately about our relationship with ourselves and what kind of life do we want to live. And I don't know, are kids bored today? I remember being bored, and my mother would tell me the same thing. Bored, it's just you're boring. Okay, well, I don't want to be boring. But I used to sit around in my room as a teenager listening to records, drawing. And I used to make myself an office in the closet. And boredom leads to daydreaming, creativity, problem solving, self-reflection, ideas, crazy ideas, all kinds of creativity, prayer, imagination, just like noticing and being. That's a wonderful thing. I was recently having a conversation with someone who was telling me when they walk, maybe it was you. I think it was a few people. I think this is like a conversation that people are having. I think there's a growing awareness of this. Oh, when I walk, I don't even listen to a podcast or music or anything anymore. I listen to the sounds around me. That's a different experience. And I noticed that in myself when I was walking. I always feel the pull to make a call or listen to something or listen to music. And it's curious.

Stillness Experiments And Closing

SPEAKER_01 19:30

And I think ultimately we need to decide what kind of life we want and what experiences create that life. And there's nothing wrong with being on your phone, but being on your phone all the time, I don't think that's so good. I mean, we used to stare out the window, now we stare at our phone.

SPEAKER_00 19:47

Do you remember staring out the window or just like people watching somewhere? So wild. I mean, I still do the people watching thing. And I do, I have started to practice that. If I'm out for a walk, I still do listen to tons of things, but I'm trying to intentionally not at some point for 15, 20 minutes. Dominantly because I am just doing a little research. I'm wanting to see how my body responds to having more stillness because I've become more aware of the things that I'm losing when every moment is filled. My aura ring gives me all these readings and lets me know when I'm stressed out. And I'm like, aura ring. I was just sitting there. I'm like, I was sitting there, but doing what? What else? And attempting to be more conscious of that. So I'm adding more meditation sessions throughout the day, which then has me attempt to have more stillness, stillness and silence. And that's just a practice. I don't know what the outcome is quite yet. I think at the very least, this is where we begin. With just a curiosity and what am I hoping to find here on the phone? Am I in consumption? Am I avoiding something? And can I say yes to the opportunity of not being distracted, of just being with life in silence with myself and starting to carve out time and looking at it like a scientist? Like, okay, I carved out the time, I gave myself the space. What happens next? I want that for me. I want that for us. Not because I have an invested interest as to whether or not humanity is on their phone, but more that I'm starting to see where potentially my phone is contributing to a dysregulation. And I would like to see myself and others more regulated. And I'm curious to know what you guys think. Please let us know. Thank you so much for tuning in to this lovely episode of Desire as Medicine. And that's it for now. Till next time.

SPEAKER_01 21:56

Thank you for joining us on the Desire as Medicine podcast.

SPEAKER_00 22:00

Desire invites us to be honest, loving, and deeply intimate with ourselves and others. You can find our handles in the show notes. We'd love to hear from you.